Episode 51: The 3 R's of Relationships: Part 2,
A Conversation with Ashley Marie Eckstein, LFMT Associate
We’re back with Ashley Marie Eckstein, LMFT Associate here at MLC, to continue this powerful discussion on the tried-and-true practices you can incorporate into your relationship today to grow closer in genuine connection and vulnerability.
Episode notes:
If you’re willing to take risks and put in the work of going to hard places, it can really create lasting change.
As mammals, we are simply hardwired for attachment.
Change happens when you’re willing to come forward in vulnerability.
Liz Higgins: (00:03)
Hey y'all! Liz Higgins here, and welcome to The Millennial Life Podcast, where my goal is to share conversations that will inspire you and drive you toward the life and relationships you desire. As your host, I'm here to share what I've learned as a licensed therapist and bring you the transformative voices of other professionals and experts that want you to cultivate relational wellness for life. Thanks for listening and enjoy the episode!
Liz Higgins: (00:32)
Welcome back to the podcast, everybody! I'm excited to be joined by my friend and colleague here at MLC, Ashley Marie, who is joining us for part two on this great relationship conversation we've been having. I don't know if listeners could possibly get, uh, get this, like… the perspective I have, just how valuable this information is that you're sharing. Because it's really some core foundational stuff that you're sharing that can benefit anybody and everybody in relationships. So, I'm very excited that we're doing part two today. Ashley Marie, welcome back!
Ashley Marie Eckstein: (01:10)
Thank you so much, Liz. I'm excited to be back! Do you want me to give you an overview of where we've been, just for our listeners?
Liz Higgins: (01:17)
Yes! Hopefully everybody has tagged along and has listened to the first segment. If you haven't, I would suggest to pause and go back and do that. It's not super long. These are gonna blend in really well together. But yeah, give people that are listening just a sense of what we talked over in the first episode.
Ashley Marie Eckstein: (01:32)
Sure, absolutely. Just in case someone has slept since the last episode… we're talking about the three R’s of repair. So: reach, respond, and receive. And in our first episode, we talked about just how important it was to get that “reach” crystal clear. That way, your partner knows what they need to respond to. And then, today, we're gonna jump into what it looks like to respond, and then of course, that final and really important one: receive. So, if you can get really clear signals out and then get it responded to, that's when you can really start creating a change event towards security, because responsiveness is what changes relationships. So we wanna get that reach really clear so that the other person knows exactly what he or she needs to respond to. And I mean, when it was just “I'm so mad at you because you checked your phone on date night”, it, it would make a lot of sense for the other partner to respond with maybe behavior modification promises.
Ashley Marie Eckstein: (02:36)
Like, ‘Oh, I'll never do that again.’ Or some people even respond with defensiveness, like, ‘But it, it was for work’, you know? ‘I only looked at my phone for 30 seconds and that was it.’ The problem is, neither one of those actually responds to the pain of the reaching partner. So if we get the reach to clearly show the other person not just how hurt they felt, but how alone they felt and the sadness that lived in their body when they were left alone, then the response might look more like, ‘Oh, well I'm here with you and you are so important to me.’ And that response, it's often accompanied by a literal hand reaching out. Or a hug. Now, this response allows the first partner to actually know in their bodies that they're not alone. And that “in your body” part is super important because you can, like, intellectually know something in your head, but in your body, it might feel totally different. So good responses usually involve the body.
Liz Higgins: (03:44)
I was gonna say… 'Cause you know, I've done my last few years of very experiential, body-based trauma training too. And this whole “in your body” thing really was a revelation for me because, like you just said, those experiences of head and body can be so very different. So can you say more about that?
Ashley Marie Eckstein: (04:03)
Yeah, of course. So, just like what you were saying, EFT is a, a very experiential model. So that means we try not to just talk about emotions cognitively. Talking about emotions in one partner… It doesn't actually alert the nervous system of the other partner that their caregiving systems need to come online. And this is part of why couples therapy is so hard. But if you're willing to take risks and put in the work of going to those hard places, it can really create lasting change. Because as mammals, we really are hardwired for attachment. So when someone we love puts out really clear signals that they're in pain, our natural biological instinct is to move towards that person and comfort them. So I think about, you know, a child that falls down on a playground, if that child has a loving caregiver at the playground that hears the child cry, they don't think twice about it. That caregiver just goes up and scoops them up and comforts them. But the same thing is true for adult relationships. So if you're willing to go back to that place, that same place where, you know, the scraped knee happened, you go back to that place of pain and show your partner your hurts, then just like when the child that scraped their knee cried, and that loving caregiver scooped them up and held them, your partner will instinctively know to come close to you. Your partner's body will actually want to respond.
Liz Higgins: (05:30)
Wow.
Ashley Marie Eckstein: (05:31)
Yeah, it's pretty cool. It's really cool how we as humans are wired in that way. And, and how the response is delivered, actually matters a lot. Something I hear often is people will say things like, ‘Well, I don't want you to feel that way. I don't want you to feel sad, or I don't want you to feel hurt.’
Liz Higgins: (05:48)
Mm-Hmm.
Ashley Marie Eckstein: (05:49)
Or even maybe with empathy, ‘I'm sorry I hurt you.’ And those are great efforts. You know, I really appreciate when people say things like that. But the problem is, it doesn't address the actual pain. So an EFT therapist will really try to help you get in touch with how your partner's pain hits your body, because once your partner's pain touches your own nervous system, that's when your body instinctively knows what to do. So that reaching hand, or that hug that I mentioned earlier, you know, a therapist won't have to tell someone to hug their partner when one person feels their partner's pain. And I ask 'em, you know, “What's happening inside of you for your partner?” Or if any part of you wants to comfort the other person, then the hug, or at least that reaching hand, it often just comes spontaneously.
Liz Higgins: (06:38)
Yeah. That's amazing. And, and an incredible thing to witness happening in the therapy room. So, I will vouch that what you're talking about is true. It happens. Yeah. Very naturally for people. So when the response addresses the actual pain and, maybe also includes some kind of physical touch, then they've got it right? We're on the right track. What's next?
Ashley Marie Eckstein: (07:00)
Yeah. So it, it doesn't have to include physical touch, but it often does. So when, when two people lock eyes, (which is something I I pretty much always ask my couples to do, is make eye contact…) But when they do that, something really sacred can happen at this point. Um, it's like you get this powerful response, and that's the third r that we want to seal the deal. We want this experience just seared into their nervous systems, burned in, in a good way. And the way that happens is when you totally, truly take it in and receive it. So we can often intellectually know something in our head, but not feel it in our body. So I'll, I'll get a little personal here. Um, you know, I know… intellectually, I know that my husband loves me and that I am enough for him, but when we get caught in our cycle, my fear of failure, it comes online.
Ashley Marie Eckstein: (07:56)
And if I'm really honest, it becomes hard for me to feel in my body that I'm enough. Um, and you know, I'm, I'm okay sharing this because I want our listeners to know that even a marriage therapist who's been married almost a decade and a half, we get caught in the cycle sometimes too. Fortunately, you know, for me and my husband, we have a super secure connection, and we repeatedly practice these three Rs. And doing that has taught my nervous system that it's safe for me to reengage instead of just totally withdrawing, which would be my normal instinct. But when we get caught in our cycle, the only way that I can know in my body that I'm enough for him is when he just wraps his arms around me and holds me. I don't need a lot of words from my husband, but I do need him to hold me.
Ashley Marie Eckstein: (08:47)
And even if he says all the right words, but he doesn't give me a hug, if I'm honest, it just feels impossible for me to take in that comfort and really receive it. But when he holds me in silence, just lets me cry without making me feel stupid for all of my fears and tears, then I can truly receive. I can receive his comfort, I can receive his love… My nervous system, it really receives the assurance. And all those horrible things that I make up in my head, that I'm afraid he thinks about me, are actually not true at all.
Ashley Marie Eckstein: (09:28)
So, I'm living proof that when you practice these three Rs, if you can reach for your partner when you're in distress, if your partner can respond to your pain, and if you can really receive your partner's comfort - you can repair anything. And if you can repair anything, your relationship is bulletproof.
Liz Higgins: (09:52)
Ooh, I love that. I'm just taking it in and I'm like, yep. I feel that I'm living proof of it too. And what a privilege for us to get to make this our life's work to help others do the same. I think you're just giving such a huge gift to the couples that you work with. Can I ask a question? You know, you were vulnerable. You shared a bit about your personal experience and what you've come to learn… your nervous system, your body's need to receive. And you mentioned, like, the, the physical hold, the hug in silence too, which, I just gotta say, like… knowing you for a few years, right? Like, that wouldn't be my guess for what you would need. I'd be like, ‘oh, she needs maybe, like, some words of affirmation and like to hear stuff that like reaffirms,’ but you've really done this work to, to discover this is something way more vulnerable, something before the words come. And I'm wondering, like, did that take a long time for you to learn about yourself? Would you say that you learned it a long time ago or has it been with EFT that that really became more, like, in just… enhanced in terms of your clarity of it and stuff?
Ashley Marie Eckstein: (11:06)
Yeah, that's a great question. I gotta think for a second to collect my thoughts, because that is not something that comes right away. Um, you know, most people that know me are surprised if I tell them I'm actually the withdrawer in our relationship. Because I am so talkative and I do fight really hard for vulnerability. Yeah. But, um, my go-to instinct is no, I, I'd rather just like hide. I'd rather not talk about things, but I'm such a physical touch person. So I'm finally getting to the, answering your question as I'm kind of working through it. It's been over the years, you know, my husband and I have been married 13 and a half years, and over the years I've been able to notice, okay, I, I feel the most secure when he just holds me in silence... And I know we're okay. Yeah. So I guess it's just taken a lot of time of listening to my body, listening to what I've learned with EFT to figure out, okay, what is necessary for us and our relational dynamic. And it's different for everyone.
Liz Higgins: (12:14)
So true. So true. And I think so many people wanna hang on to this fantasy or a bit of a myth out there, probably just from culture and stuff, that if it should be something you kind of walk into in a relationship and, and it should feel easy, right? Yeah. I mean, it's, it's definitely a fantasy. I've had it myself at times, right? “If it's the right thing, it should feel easy.” But really it's like, if it's the right thing, it will take work and you have that choice to opt in, and if you do, I just hear from your story, like, there's so much opportunity to learn, and grow, and just build off of that foundation to really create a secure attachment.
Ashley Marie Eckstein: (12:57)
Yeah. And you know, I'll, I'll go even a step further for you, Liz, and for our listeners, in the sense that when my husband and I, we practice these three Rs, there have been times even recently actually, when he'll respond to me verbally and go, “Are you okay?” And kind of checking in with me, and that's when I go, “I need a hug.” And so I still make that explicit reach to get my needs met and say, ‘I, I love what you're saying, but I need a hug. I need you to hold me.‘
Liz Higgins: (13:24)
Yeah. And like you're reminding him, maybe that needs to be the fourth r . It's like, remind. We kind of have to, you know, every now and then, like, ‘Hey, you know, I, I appreciate what you're doing there, but what I really need in this moment is…’ And I just hear, again, that takes work for you to, like, be in awareness of yourself, which is that body-based piece, but then brave enough to reach over and over and over again.
Ashley Marie Eckstein: (13:53)
Because if you remember with our part one, we talked about how your partner cannot read your mind, so you gotta be explicit and be brave. Yep.
Liz Higgins: (14:02)
Let's just breathe that one in. 'Cause that's a really important one, I think. Thank you so much for sharing the wisdom. I'm just so excited that you're doing such deep, meaningful work with your couples. Is there anything else you wanna leave your listeners just marinating on? Or what would you maybe say to somebody that's listening that's like, ‘Wow, this sounds like exactly what I need, but where, where would I even start, you know, to learn to integrate?’
Ashley Marie Eckstein: (14:31)
So I would wanna tell anyone asking that question that this takes time. It really does take time. And I'll often tell my couples, you know, as, as long as you're willing to keep fighting for this, I won't give up on you. Because it does take time. And you have to be willing to risk, you have to be willing to risk showing those parts of you that you might not want other people to see. And that's where the change happens, is when you're willing to come forward in vulnerability with a safe other.
Liz Higgins: (15:07)
Oh yeah. Thank you for that. And thanks again for being here.
Ashley Marie Eckstein: (15:11)
Thanks for having me.
Liz Higgins: (15:12)
I want, yes, I want everybody that's listening to know, you can find out more about Ashley Marie specifically at our website. We're gonna have links in both episodes to your bio so they can easily access that. But I just love that even on your website bio, people can get a sense of you - hear your voice, hear you talking about relationship and some of your philosophies about building healthy relationships. So, if you're listening and this has struck you and you're eager to see what it might be like doing this EFT therapy, this learning these three Rs and integrating them over time, please check out Ashley Marie's bio! And you know, you can also subscribe and send questions in and curiosities that you have about what we've talked about. So we wanna hear those things so we can help everybody listening build epic relationships. Thanks again for coming, Ashley Marie!
Ashley Marie Eckstein: (16:06)
Thank you!
Liz Higgins: (22:09)
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