Episode 50: The 3 R's of Relationships: Part 1,
A Conversation with Ashley Marie Eckstein, LFMT Associate
Welcome to week two of the podcast!
Today, Liz is joined by one of MLC’s very own LMFT Associates, Ashley Marie Eckstein, for a conversation surrounding research-based techniques (that Ashley Marie incorporates with her couples, too!) that help create strong emotional foundations, foster healthy communication, and navigate challenges with empathy and understanding.
Tune in for expert advice, personal stories, and a powerful conversation that will leave you feeling inspired to lean into your partner and nurture your relationship.
Episode notes:
The root of relationship problems is often disconnection.
When you’re in distress, you have to reach for your partner.
Couples need to view patterns, not people, as the enemy.
A reach toward your partner must be accompanied by genuine, vulnerable emotion.
Liz Higgins: (00:03)
Hey y'all, Liz Higgins here, and welcome to the Millennial Life Podcast, where my goal is to share conversations that will inspire you and drive you toward the life and relationships you desire. As your host, I'm here to share what I've learned as a licensed therapist and bring you the transformative voices of other professionals and experts that want you to cultivate relational wellness for life. Thanks for listening, and enjoy the episodes. Hi everybody. I am so excited to, I'm actually really excited to be back doing the Millennial Life podcast. It's been a little while, took a little break. And Ashley Marie, you are joining me here - again! - to help get this podcast rolling. So I'm very excited to have you here. Thanks for joining!
Ashley Marie Eckstein: (00:51)
Thanks so much for having me, Liz!
Liz Higgins: (00:54)
Yes. So for those who maybe haven't heard from you since the last podcast we recorded, gosh, probably over a year ago now, right? Why don't you share just a little bit with our listeners about who you are, uh, the work you do here at MLC, and just some of your passions as a couples therapist?
Ashley Marie Eckstein: (01:12)
Sure. Thanks so much for that. I am a licensed marriage and family therapist associate. I am obsessed with the model that I practice, which is called Emotionally Focused Therapy (which I know we'll get into a little more.) I love my work with couples. I do see individuals, and I love my work with individuals too, but I'd say 80 to 90% of my caseload is couples. And that's really where I've got the specialized training. I've been more recently niching down and started focusing on couples where one or both partners is impacted by ADHD. I started noticing it coming up in my caseload all the time, so I figured I'm gonna go get even more training on that, and it's been really fun to see how I can help support those couples.
Liz Higgins: (02:00)
So relevant. I think that's just, yeah, so huge for couples in our world today. I, I feel like for me too, and other therapists on our team, I've definitely heard just the impact and, and frequency, honestly, of ADHD being a factor. So it's very cool that you're doing that. So today we're deep diving into some couples therapy stuff, which I think is just one of the pillars of what this whole podcast is about - helping people create these epic relationships. And, you know, you and I live in reality with our feet sturdy on the ground that it's not easy and it's not always, um, a walk in the park. So there are actually a lot of skills and tools we have to teach, and this is just, I think, gonna be a huge episode for people to tune into because it's really, like, gold that you're sharing with us. So you are, you are gonna be talking about how couples can essentially bulletproof their relationship. Which, uh, feels like a pretty big claim. Tell me how you are feeling so confident, uh, in what you're gonna talk about today, and that it works.
Ashley Marie Eckstein: (03:07)
Oh my goodness. Well, I love that you're starting with that. First of all, um… I've always been a bit of a perfectionist, you know? That kid that always has to be the best at everything. And although I am working on accepting less than perfection for myself, when I was early on in my practice, I started looking at different therapy models, and I knew I had to land with the one that had the most evidence-based training, and the one that shows the best results based on science. So, everything I'm gonna talk about today comes from a model created by Dr. Sue Johnson called Emotionally Focused Therapy, or EFT. And EFT is the gold standard for couples therapy, which, what that really means is that a lot of really smart people studied it in a very scientific way to determine that 70 to 75% of couples move from distress to full recovery. And 90% of couples actually show significant improvement after completing the process. So I really believe that the reasons for those super high success rates is because EFT works to treat the root of the problems, which at the core, it's almost always disconnection.
Liz Higgins: (04:22)
Yeah. And I think I, I'm glad you started with that because that is, is so valid. And, you know, when people are looking for help, I think therapy can feel kind of ambiguous and, you know… “How do we know this is gonna work?” Like this model that you're utilizing with couples has been proven to work, it's evidence based. Evidence based research. So that is just really exciting and I think gives me a lot of hope when I think about couples that come to our office. So, can we start with, uh, just an overview of EFT and a little bit about what you're gonna talk about today?
Ashley Marie Eckstein: (04:55)
Absolutely. So I believe that there are three Rs to bulletproofing a relationship. And if you can consistently do these three things successfully, your bond with your partner will be secure because you'll be able to repair anything. So the R's, the three R’s are reach, respond, and receive. I think it's probably best to go in depth just one at a time. So we'll start with the reach. When you're feeling in distress, you've got to reach for your partner. You need to let your partner really see your pain. And, really, trying to handle everything on your own… It doesn't work in the long run. Either you end up hurt because you're carrying so much on your own, or your partner ends up getting hurt because you didn't let them in. And, and all of that breeds disconnection. And if you remember I said earlier that the root of most problems is almost always disconnection. So in order to get back to connection, you have to start with the reach. And if your partner doesn't know you're hurting, then how can they be expected to come close and comfort you? But if you, if they know that you're hurting and you get a clear signal out that you need them, then that's the first step.
Liz Higgins: (06:08)
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. As you're talking about reaching… I am pivoting a little bit. I hope that's okay. I'm just kind of thinking out loud - what are some of the reasons why it might feel difficult and tricky for people to reach in the first place? I think we're gonna talk about that in a little bit, but it's not as easy as it sounds, I guess. Right? And one of the things I know we, we can hear from clients often is sort of like, ‘if I have to ask, it's not meaningful.’ We hear from clients that they know each other so well. Their partners should just know when they're upset.
Liz Higgins: (06:45)
You know? But it, it's… you're saying that they must make this explicit reach to their partner when they need. So what about the couples that are so close that they, that they can see when the other one's upset? Can't they just skip this step and go to the next one?
Ashley Marie Eckstein: (07:01)
Ugh, I love that you asked that. That's such a great question. I tell people all the time, I don't care how close you are. I don't care how long you've been together. You cannot read each other's minds. Now, you might get lucky sometimes, and some couples, yes… because they're so close and they've known each other so long, maybe they even guess correctly pretty often. But you're never really able to know for sure what your partner is thinking. And if you're particularly good at guessing, it's gonna be extra painful when you get it wrong, because you set this expectation for your partner that you can do something that you actually can't. I mean, contrary to what we see in superhero comics, there is no such thing as mind reading. So it has to start with the reach.
Liz Higgins: (07:47)
I think something you said right there is really huge too. Like, because you mentioned some couples do read that, it's like, we do know, we can tell when our husband or (husband… I'm projecting here because I have a husband) but when our partner is maybe experiencing something, or upset, or whatever… but that doesn't necessarily mean that you know what's going on. That doesn't give you this ability to surpass, you know, needing that other person to actually come to you with something that's maybe gone awry. So just kind of processing that.
Ashley Marie Eckstein: (08:20)
Absolutely. Absolutely. And honestly, you could be setting yourself up for failure, because if your partner is used to you reading their mind, I'm using air quotes here, then the moment you get it wrong, well… Ouch. That's gonna be extra painful for sure.
Liz Higgins: (08:38)
Right?
Ashley Marie Eckstein: (08:38)
Yeah. Yeah. So it, it can be really tricky because most people, I would say, fall into one of two camps. One camp is the people that have been really socialized by culture to believe that sharing emotions or asking for comfort is weak. So for these people, the idea of making the reach in the first place could be really, really scary. And it, it is a terrifying thing to feel vulnerable, especially when you're talking to such an important person in your life. And the other camp, you know, these people, they may not have trouble asking their partner for what they need. These people, they might come right out and say it, they'll say “you embarrassed me at that party,” or “you never help me around the house.” Or maybe even, “why can't I get you to pay attention to me?” And these two different camps of people, they tend to attract one another.
Ashley Marie Eckstein: (09:31)
I don't know why opposites always attract, but they do. So with this first camp that I mentioned, you know, these partners, especially if they've ever gotten the message growing up that he or she isn't enough, or if they've ever even once felt like they can't get anything right in the eyes of their partner, well… That just adds an extra layer to why it would be so hard and so scary to make a reach in the first place. So these people, they tend to be the ones that shut down. They try to ignore things. They would much rather eat some good food, get some drinks, maybe even have sex, than talk about the real issues, you know? But this is where the therapist comes in. I get to support these more withdrawn clients. I get to really validate the good reasons that they have for doing what they do. And I help them put out clear signals so their partner can get the message that they're in distress and that they really need the other person to come close with comfort and connection. And oftentimes, when the more withdrawn partner sends these clear signals about their own sadness or their own pain, the other partner almost always - it's, it's so consistent… They'll say something like, ‘I've never heard this from him before, or I had no idea she felt this way.’
Liz Higgins: (10:53)
Hmm. I can only imagine what those moments must be like to witness, too, when you've kind of helped lead them to that moment of, ‘oh, so this is what's been going on for you.’ It pulls me back to that thing of you, you can know somebody so well, but not actually know what's really going on on this deeper level. So, so this is just really an art.
Ashley Marie Eckstein: (11:17)
That's why the reach is so important.
Liz Higgins: (11:19)
Yes, a hundred percent. And I'm thinking about that other camp that you mentioned, because I know you're not saying that only the withdrawn partner is the one that needs therapy. We, we know there's two people in the room. Right?
Ashley Marie Eckstein: (11:31)
Definitely, definitely not. That's definitely not what I'm saying. So even though the first camp, they struggle to make the reach in the first place, the people that land in that second camp, they often think they're making a reach and it's often not as clear as he or she thinks. So these partners, they, they really do believe they're reaching, but their signals get crossed. And there's this negative cycle that takes over for couples and well, I mean, it lies to them. So when, when a couple gets caught in a negative cycle, their good intentions just don't ever show through. And so when you have this other kind of partner, the kind that initiates conversations more easily, this person's more likely to bring up a frustration, but it typically won't come from a vulnerable place. So again, this is where the therapist comes in, right? This person might say something like, you know, ‘it really ticked me off when you did X, Y, Z,’ but the therapist helps them find their own words to actually describe how hurt or how sad they feel about that X, Y, Z.
Ashley Marie Eckstein: (12:38)
And then we take it a step further and go from describing how it feels to experiencing it in the room. And part of getting that reach so clear is making sure that the other partner registers what the reaching partner's painful experience was like. Um, for some partners, the therapist might have to start with helping him or her just find the courage to make the reach in the first place. Whereas the therapist is gonna really need to help both partners make sure that their signals they're putting out are more clear. And we have to go back to those hard places in order to get those signals as clear as possible.
Liz Higgins: (13:19)
Yeah. I think this is so significant too, because for me, a lot of times I've sat with couples and there's this sense in the room of like, needing things to feel fair and almost like the work is very evenly split down the middle. And you're describing that, like, this, this reach and the blocks to it can really be so different. And, and so the, the work, the, the growth work can also look and maybe feel really different for each partner. And so just noting how critical that probably is to be aware of that, some things are gonna feel like different levels of effort and stuff like that. And you said earlier that these signals can get crossed and you talked about a negative cycle. Can you tell us a little bit more about that?
Ashley Marie Eckstein: (14:05)
Sure. I mean, that's definitely, definitely relevant here. So the reason that couples probably can't just listen to this podcast and then immediately implement this in the relationship is the negative cycle. So no matter how long you're together, or even how healthy your relationship, every couple gets stuck in a negative cycle. I mean, shoot, right before we were recording I was telling you about how my husband and I got caught in a negative cycle recently, but we used these things that I'm talking about today and had an amazing repair. So what I'm about to talk about, it really does work. And it, it's so cool to see that, you know, we even apply this in our own lives. So what, what I'm about, it does vary for every couple. So I don't want you or anyone listening to think I'm putting people in boxes or that it's exactly the same for all couples.
Ashley Marie Eckstein: (14:57)
I'm just speaking generally here. But maybe imagine one person when their partner checked their phone in the middle of a date night, right? They started to feel hurt and maybe on a deeper level even feared that it meant that the other partner just didn't care about them. So they get loud and they get critical, but when that second partner hears the first partner getting loud and critical… Well, they start feeling hurt. And maybe on a deeper level, maybe they fear, this means I can never get things right in the eyes of my partner. Or worse, their partner thinks that they're a total failure. Those are some really painful messages right there. And the reality is, the partner that got upset about the phone checking, well, they had really good reasons for getting loud. The other partner is, you know, historically withdrawn. Getting loud may be the only way that this person knows how to get their partner's attention.
Ashley Marie Eckstein: (15:56)
And in my experience, they usually care so much about the other partner, and that's why they desperately want to feel like they're just as important to them in the eyes of their partner. So all that person really wants is for their partner to come close and just show them that they're important. But the negative cycle they get caught in, well, it, it twists. It, it lies to them. It twists that message of, ‘I love you and I just wanna feel that you love me too.’ And it becomes a message of ‘you never get anything right.’ So when the partner that was checking the phone hears that criticism, I mean, what do you think they're gonna do? A lot of the time they shut down, you know? That's pretty typical. They'll shut down. And, you know, the person that shuts down has a really good reason for shutting down.
Ashley Marie Eckstein: (16:47)
They probably care so much about their partner that they likely didn't wanna cause hurt by checking the phone and getting quiet. That probably feels like the fastest way to get back to peace. So that response of getting quiet often comes from a place of wanting the other partner to be in harmony. They might even initiate sex after a fight in an attempt to get close. I see that a lot. But the negative cycle, it twists that message that the person is trying to send out that message of, ‘I love you and I just don't wanna fight.’ And, instead, the message that gets communicated is, ‘I don't care enough about you to fight,’ or ‘I only care about you when I want sex.’ So when, when a couple is caught in a negative cycle like this, if they try to make a reach, their positive intentions are not likely to show through.
Ashley Marie Eckstein: (17:39)
And that's why I stress so much to my couples that it's patterns, not people, that they should view as the enemy. And the enemy is the cycle, right? The cycle is 100% their enemy. And then one person gets loud or critical, because it's the only way they know how to get their partner to listen. But that triggers the other person to shut down and totally withdraw, because it's the only way that they know how to get peace or to avoid a fight. But the more that one shuts down, the louder the other person gets, and then the more that person shuts down… And it, it just kind of goes around and round like this negative infinity loop, and it, it lies and tells each partner the worst possible messages about their relationship.
Liz Higgins: (18:22)
I think this is a great, just, description of what this can look like and feel like. And the narratives going on in people's minds, too, when that break has occurred and the disconnect is present. Right? So, just circling back to the three R's, it sounds like getting the first R clear can be a real challenge, especially if the couple is caught in a negative cycle like you're describing here.
Ashley Marie Eckstein: (18:51)
Yeah. It, it really does take time and practice - often in the safe, the safety of a therapy space - before most couples can get out clear signals with their reach. But this, this is because the signal isn't clear. If you don't show your partner your pain, I mean, just saying ‘I'm hurt’ is not the same thing as letting tears slip out and showing your partner the sadness that you feel. So that's, that's something I should mention. That a solid reach, it must be accompanied by vulnerable emotion. And when that happens, step two is the response.
Liz Higgins: (19:32)
Ooh, step two. So I know we're holding on to step two until, uh, our next episode. So people are gonna have to hang tight and listen to that! But I really appreciate you for taking us into this deep dive about reaching, and I encourage all the people listening to think about how they've maybe done at reaching lately in their, in their life. Because it sounds like if they can make a reach and the message is clear, then a response is next. We're gonna come back and talk about that next time. And Ashley Marie, I think I'm just wanting to also share with listeners like, this isn't stuff you're supposed to just know. Most of us didn't ever get information like what you're sharing with us, where we can actually learn these tools and new ways of relating with our partner - and really anybody! - in our life that can really be transformative. So it's exciting to know that you can share that with your clients. And, and it's not just sharing, but in your sessions, you're actually teaching them what it sounds like, what it feels like.
Ashley Marie Eckstein: (20:38)
Mm-Hmm. Yeah. Well, I think I would give one caveat to what you just said. I, I try to stay out of the realm of teaching. So instead of, you know… A lot of times couples come to me wanting tools, and tips, and tricks. And I'm, I'm kind of teaching here on the podcast, but in the therapy room, we make it more experiential. So instead of me teaching them about the three Rs, I help them to experience it. So I, I may not say, you know, step by step, you gotta make your reach, and you gotta respond, and you gotta receive. Um, sometimes, we'll, we'll talk about getting the signals really clear. Couples that work with me often here, and we talk about that. ‘We gotta get this signal clear. What did you see when you heard that?’ You know? ‘What was the look on your partner's face or the tone of voice he or she used that made you feel like they weren't with you, or you just couldn't get it right?’ And so then, they're going into their body and they're noticing what they feel. So it's very experiential in that sense.
Liz Higgins: (21:43)
That's amazing. I'm so glad you shared that too, because I can hear that there is a big difference between talking about these concepts and actually how you help couples in the therapy room to get to these kind of places. I'm so excited to learn more from you in the next episode! Thanks for giving us this wisdom today and, and sharing this with our listeners.
Ashley Marie Eckstein: (22:04)
Thank you so much. Thanks for having me. I can't wait to be back next time!
Liz Higgins: (22:09)
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