Episode 53: First Responders: Trauma, Relationships & Healing

A Conversation with Amanda Noyes, LCSW & Founder of Finding Freedom Therapy

Full Transcript

This week, Liz is joined by Amanda Noyes, LCSW and Founder/Owner of Finding Freedom Therapy here in Dallas. In this powerful episode, we sit down with Amanda as she shares her expertise on the unique challenges that first responders face—ranging from emotional trauma to the strain it places on their relationships. We dive deep into how trauma affects not only the individual but their loved ones as well, and explore effective strategies for healing and recovery. Whether you're a first responder, a veteran, or someone looking to understand and support them, this conversation is an essential listen.

EPISODE NOTES:

• The learned behaviors that can keep first responders alive on the job can be the same thing that hurts their relationships.

• One of the hardest things for first responder couples is the schedule.

• We often forget that first responders are serving.

• There are many different modalities for treating trauma. Not every modality is for everyone. If you try a treatment that doesn’t fit, do not get discouraged. Find another one!

• If you’ve been traumatized before, you have a high chance of being traumatized by the same circumstances again.

• Times of struggle are the most important to take extra care of yourself.

• Beyond trauma therapy, anything that helps you reconnect with yourself and your loved ones can be hugely impactful in healing your traumas.

• When we have a healthy support network, we are more likely to be the best, most effective versions of ourselves.

Liz Higgins: (00:02)
Hey, y'all Liz Higgins here and welcome to The Millennial Life Podcast, where my main goal is to share conversations that will inspire you and drive you toward the life and relationship you desire. I'm here to share what I've learned as a licensed therapist and relationship coach specializing in millennial relationships and wellness, as well as transformative conversations with other professionals. Thanks for listening and enjoy today's episode.

Liz Higgins: (00:32)
Hello, everybody! I am incredibly excited for today's episode of the podcast. I have a wonderful friend - someone who I think is one of the most skilled clinicians, probably in our metroplex, in our state. I am not lying. Amanda Noyes is with me today, who is a licensed clinical social worker supervisor and the founder and owner of Finding Freedom Therapy in Texas. Dallas, Texas. Amanda, I'm so excited to have you here!

Amanda Noyes: (01:05)
Hi! That was the sweetest intro I think I've ever gotten. Thank you so much!

Liz Higgins: (01:09)
Well, it's easy to say when it's true. You know, gosh, we probably could go on a tangent just reflecting on our paths crossing all these years ago, and just, kind of, moving forward in the world of therapy life and, and ultimately growing our practices and all of those things. So it's awesome having you here! And I see your friend behind you....Remind me who's here with us.

Amanda Noyes: (01:33)
Lily! Lily is here. So if she barks during the podcast, I apologize. She still has a stigma with the doorbell since Covid. Do you wanna come and see her?

Liz Higgins: (01:45)
What a sweetie. Yes. I'm so glad I see her because I want to remember to have you share a little bit about, um, the part she plays in the work that you do. So... We are here today to spend some time talking about a, a very important population - first responders. This is your wheelhouse. I think it's so great to know that, you know, this is your zone where you can shed some education and, and information and light for us and for listeners on, um, what it might be like for first responders to experience therapy. But also... Kind of making a bridge with what we do at MLC and what our podcast is about, which is relationships. So, yeah. I'm very excited to see where the conversation takes us. But first, how about you tell us a little bit about you... Maybe the specializations that you've had over the years and why you're passionate about working with first responders specifically.

Amanda Noyes: (02:42)
Okay. Um, so my name is Amanda Noyes. It's like... The last name's fun because it sounds like a loud sound, um, pronounced like 'noise'. Yeah. But it actually is spelled no, yes. So I actually do answer to Amanda "no, yes". Uh, and it's easier for people to remember when they don't remember who their therapist was. Um, so I'm a clinical social worker, and I had a very cool start, um, where I had the opportunity to be more out in the field. Um, so when I was in grad school, I was actually working with Pflugerville Police Department, um, which is just outside of Brown Rock.

Amanda Noyes: (03:29)
And I did victim services with them. So, I would be on call and I would go out if there was a death, or just a really difficult scene so that the police officers could do their job and I would be able to assist, um, and help the people who weren't okay in pretty much the most horrible moments of their life. Um, so I was able to do that. And then I did intern at the VA, and that gave me an opportunity to do both the mental health side of things and the medical. So social workers can actually work in hospitals and we can do work within the ICU departments and, um, within the emergency departments. So, a lot of what we do was the, uh, end of life thing. So, we would do the death notifications because I personally believe social workers do it a little bit better than the doctors do.

Amanda Noyes: (04:14)
Um, and, uh, we're actually able to help the families, but we also help the medical staff. So, like, the doctors and the nurses, um, because they're not, they don't go through grad school like we do. Um, medical staff doesn't have to work through all of their own, uh, issues before they can help others. Um, they go out and they're able to learn the medical side of things. But our grad school, at least with clinical social work, but I'm guessing with all of the, um, LMFTs and LPCs... all the different, I guess, licensures. Uh, we have to work through our own things to be healthy. So in the hospitals, we would also be present for the frontline workers, which are doctors and nurses. Um, so I was there for some crazy situations. And so I did medical social work for about five years.

Amanda Noyes: (04:57)
Um, and I've also, through those positions, worked through most of the hurricanes. So I've done five different hurricanes and worked alongside the National Guard. And after all of that, I actually slipped back to mental health, uh, because I, uh... Veterans have a special place in my heart because I lost my brother-in-law in Iraq in '05. And watching what that did to our family, and how complicated deaths like that are, was... Made me more interested in the population. 'Cause military veterans are, uh, very complicated in all of the, the mental health and what they deal with and where they come from and all the different things. So I did inpatient, uh, trauma therapy at UBH for a while, and I realized in doing that we could get people healthy enough with their trauma, but they could actually redeploy. And so when I was ready to go into my private practice, I realized there wasn't enough of, uh, that available.

Amanda Noyes: (05:52)
So that's what we started with. My practice was to create trauma therapy, uh, that people could get better and continue doing what they're doing. So my practice actually specializes in kind of the heavier, more horrific traumas. Um, and I was teasing you earlier that my practice deals with the, the traumas that make other therapists cry. Um, yeah. So it's kind of, it's kind of hard to market, but that's, that's what we're very good at. We're very skilled at dealing with the more complex and the harder to deal with traumas and the ongoing. So, think of anybody, um... Police, fire, military, active duty military, our frontline workers. Um, so doctors, nurses... Anybody who is exposed to trauma after trauma after trauma, we can help them get to a point where they can live healthy, happy lives and continue to do the jobs that they love.

Liz Higgins: (06:39)
Right.

Amanda Noyes: (06:40)
So my practice started and that's what we kind of specialize in.

Liz Higgins: (06:43)
I love that. Thank you for sharing all of that. And I love that you are open about that theme there of like, we work with what other, what makes other therapists cry. Because like, I, I can fully acknowledge and support that. And being a clinician, like it can be... It's necessary, but like, incredibly helpful to have a resource like yours' for when those unique, but certainly, like, really intense trauma cases come through because it's our, it's our job and responsibility to know our limits with those things. And in the same way you kind of refer to us for the relationship stuff. We're always thinking of Finding Freedom Therapy for what you guys provide because it is unique and very, very specialized. So I think that's great for people to know about. So, okay. So like, I think... I'm thinking about first responders and their relationships. Um, obviously we see a lot of relationships over at my neck of the woods. I'm curious, like, from your perspective, what are maybe some unique challenges that first responders experience specifically in their relationships? But maybe even just to, as we warm up in here today, like things that you see them coming into therapy for.

Amanda Noyes: (07:58)
So what, what they're mainly struggling with in the relational aspect of things?

Liz Higgins: (08:03)
Yeah.

Amanda Noyes: (08:03)
Okay. So, um, and, uh, we're lucky because we work with, um, both the, the first responders and the first responders, um, in our world include, um, fire, police, dispatch. Technically, um, it's more considered frontline workers with, uh, doctors and nurses. But I count them... And other first responders that people often forget would probably be dispatch and civilian workers, like crime scene. Um, so they are all in our book of first responders, and we treat all of them. And we actually work with both the first responder and the spouse, but we don't do couples therapy. That's why I refer to you and call you all the time. Right. We don't do couples yet. At some point we will, but we're waiting for the right person to come along. But, effectively, we get both sides of the, the spectrum. Of understanding what they're both dealing with and what that's like.

Amanda Noyes: (08:53)
Um, there's also a first responder couples expert in the area. I'm not sure if you're familiar with Cindy Doyle. I love her. Um, she actually came out to the DFW First Responder Support Network and did a presentation. Um, so I like how she, um, explains things about how, uh, we kind of get these learned behaviors. Um, and then they're the things that keep us alive, uh, when we're out in the field and doing the things that first responders need to do. But those learned behaviors are also what hurt the couples. So a lot of times, sometimes with first responder couples, one of the simplest, but most tiring and trying parts of the relationship is the schedule. And people don't understand how complicated that is. Every first responder has different hours, so like the departments work differently. So, um, with, uh, fire, you're gonna have 24 on and 48 off.

Amanda Noyes: (09:48)
So, effectively one of the hardest things for a first responder couple is that you can't change your schedule. If your child has a play, if your wife is in labor, if you're lucky, you can get off. But depending on what's going on, you may not be able to. Um, and people try to switch schedules, but everything's, um, it's a little bit more, more complicated with the schedule. And so effectively, the spouse is in this role of a single parent, like, almost every other day. Um, and they're unable to, um, try to... They've gotta figure out how to integrate their first responder spouse back into their life when they are there. Which is hard. It's almost like a deployment, but multiple deployments each week, if that makes sense. So families, like, figure out how to work without that, that, um, first responder, right? And then they come back in and the first responder doesn't know where to fit half the time. So finding a regular schedule is surprisingly hard. Um, and so it's hard for the spouse who's at home because they're trying to figure out how to manage everything when the, the first responder's gone, and then how to manage everything when the first responder's back. And the first responder doesn't know quite where they fit, and they're missing all of these important life moments.

Liz Higgins: (10:59)
Yeah. I can imagine that causes some anxiety maybe on, like, these separate internal levels, but definitely some conflict and a challenge. I mean, even as I think about some of the basic things a couple's therapist might try to work with a couple at, which is stuff like, you know, divide and conquer, really working as a team on the home front and establishing these roles... It's like you can't necessarily do that with a couple where one of them is a first responder. That type of solution just won't fit for the culture of their life. And, um, do you find that the schedule thing shifts and becomes an easier thing for a first responder to navigate, you know, throughout their life or at any particular point? Or is it like, this is kind of how it is at any level?

Amanda Noyes: (11:50)
I'm trying to think of a good way to explain this. I do believe that they get used to it, it's their norm. But have you ever been carrying a backpack for a long time and you didn't realize how much weight you were carrying and you took it off and all of a suddeny you're like, 'Oh, wow, that was a lot.' Yeah. I think it's like that. They're carrying so much and they do get used to it, if you will, but it's not any easier because it's constant. And, like, with police officers, they have mandatory overtime. So let's say you had an anniversary dinner or something coming up and all of a sudden there's, um, a parade and there's concerns for riot. Mandatory overtime. If, um, like there's, uh, a tragedy or an incident that happens. Mandatory overtime. You don't get to choose. So that's really hard for the spouse who's not a first responder to manage their job because if they, they can't fully rely on their spouse for that. Right? Um, and so part of it's because there's no norm. Like, it's not, I mean... Not that I can say I've ever figured out a norm in my job either, but it's at least... It's a little bit more, for the most part, doable. Like, we can't interrupt our clients, and especially with trauma therapy, we, we can't move them, uh, because that could cause more harm, but it's still not this thing of all of a sudden I'm working overnight and I won't be home for 12 more hours, you know?

Liz Higgins: (13:03)
Yes, yes. And I really appreciate that. When I kind of asked my initial question there, you started by really defining first responder, because, you know... I think even listeners might have one type of person or activity in their mind when they think about that term, first responders. But really it's this really wide net of different, um, positions and even industries like, you know? Stuff like that. So I think it's important to, to acknowledge that piece with everything you just talked about. What do you find is the question, even like, how does the partner kind of come to terms and reconcile this reality about their life? With their partner not being available, you know, um, or is it more like, like... What do you see works to kind of help them face this very piece you're talking about?

Amanda Noyes: (13:55)
Well, I think what we do here is, um, especially for the spouse, is we normalize that it's a lot. And it's hard. And it's kind of, like, one of those things in life that they understand it can't change. And sometimes they wouldn't even want it to. I mean, my first responders thrive off of the, um, irregularity to a certain extent, right? They love it, um, and hate it. It's both, but it's, there's something nice about the schedule not being quite the same. And I know that you do kind of get used to that to a certain extent until you're missing things that you really wanna go to for the spouse. It's, it's kind of understanding what their, their service is. We forget that if you're married to a first responder, um, the spouse is serving. Technically the same thing with the veterans, right?

Amanda Noyes: (14:39)
Or, um, military service members when someone's deployed. That mom, or that dad, or those grandparents or whoever... The caregiver or that, you know, the people of that kid, right? They are serving, they're having to do all of the work. Um, and so I think one of the things that's important for us as a society to do is understand that a first responder family, the entire family is impacted. So like with what you do, you work with a lot of connection and you work with how families can work together. And that's vital because it's not just one person that's the, the first responder. Because those kids have to worry, uh, about their, their parent coming home, their spouse has to worry about their spouse coming home and, and all of the stress of the job. So the most common stressor is the, uh, schedule, but the, the most, uh, I guess known one is how hard it is on the families for all of that with the, the fear that they're gonna lose someone they love.

Amanda Noyes: (15:34)
Because even fire can be, um, in danger. And it's not actually just the fire calls that they're in danger on because our firefighters go out to really intense calls, and oftentimes they get there before the police do. And so that's dangerous. And crime scene, um, they are going out and there is a police presence, but it's still a crime scene. So we forget, um, what kind of happens, uh, or the trauma and the stress of the job. Think of dispatch and call takers, which are actually two separate things. Um, and having to walk someone through CPR and having to hear all the people's worst moments, the worst moment in someone's life are these people's daily occurrence. And they might experience five different worst moments in one day as a first responder. So, the entire family is reacting to that, if that makes sense. So the spouse is trying to also manage, um, their, the mental, whether we should manage the mental health of our spouse or not is a whole other story. But they are, they have to take that in and understand on certain days their spouse is not gonna be able to even when they come home, be fully present. Right? And the kids figuring out how to adjust to that. Right? So I think it's, it hits on all the levels of everybody in the family, um, managing that. Does that make sense?

Liz Higgins: (16:48)
Yes, it absolutely, it absolutely does. And I, I wonder if people that are listening may have the question or curiosity, because we talk so much in our field - especially now - about trauma and treating trauma. And you know, I think something people might wonder is how do you work with first responders in therapy on trauma, um, when they're kind of like existing in this Petri dish where they're constantly re-exposed over and over again to traumas? Is it possible to still help them with that stuff when they're actively participating in that role?

Amanda Noyes: (17:27)
Absolutely. Um, that's a great question. Okay. Uh, and let's see if I can make this not the longest answer in the world.

Liz Higgins: (17:33)
We love long answers. You're an expert.

Amanda Noyes: (17:37)
Oh, we're just gonna party 'til we can't anymore today. Got it.

Amanda Noyes: (17:39)
. I like it. Okay. So, um, I've got my little cheat sheet of what I do for psych eds when I go out to talk to the departments. Effectively, yes, we can live in worlds where we do some really hard and scary work, and we've done this as human beings always. We're often in, in different positions where we have to deal with some really hard and heavy things, and people throughout the world, in different regions are going through constant trauma. And we do learn to manage in those, those states. And there's a lot of different things that, that matter for it. Um, one of the things that I teach and how, how... So the, the quick answer to how to treat trauma is one of the evidence-based modalities (and there's quite a few out there) uh... The three gold standards are cognitive processing therapy, which is what we do.

Amanda Noyes: (18:30)
EMDR, which is very popular and very effective. Um, I think that's the one that most people hear about more often right now is EMDR. And then prolonged exposure, which is probably the oldest, not probably. Is the oldest trauma modality. And working through these, oftentimes when we learn to work through trauma and we understand how to manage that trauma, although we will likely get traumatized again, we won't, we will go through the trauma, but we won't be traumatized by it. Right? So sometimes just unraveling a trauma and knowing how to do that, we're less likely to be traumatized even in traumatizing situations again. Make sense? Yeah. So, like with CPT... And I'll speak mainly to that, although all of the modalities are wonderful out there! And there's many that aren't even technically, um, evidence-based yet. There's a lot of different trauma modalities coming out that are very effective. So I want everyone to know that there are so many different options for treatment out there, and, um, if one doesn't work, don't give up. Find one that does.

Liz Higgins: (19:27)
This sounds mportant to hear. Maybe one thing may not really resonate with a person. And it's okay, that might just mean it's not the method really that works for you, I guess. Yeah. Yeah.

Amanda Noyes: (19:38)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. And most of them have an 80% success rate, which means 20% of people won't work with that. Right. Yeah. So I've been lucky that I've only had a couple that it didn't work, or we needed to do different therapy for different things. Um, but that 20% matter, and there's nothing wrong with them. It just means that this modality wasn't the one that suits them the most. And now, neurobiology is catching up to psychology and it's so exciting. So there's lots of options. Um, but like with CPT, once I unravel one trauma, it's kinda like undoing a knot. It's just like everything kind of comes undone, and then we can reorganize. And once we're reorganized, we're able to kind of handle traumas moving forward. Which is wonderful. But the other thing that I teach, um, when I go out is that, um, oftentimes with first responders, what freaks them out is that they think that they're, they'll go through a really hard, um, call, like something just messes with them. Uh, understandably. The first thing that messes with them is that, well, I've dealt with worse. Why is this call hitting me?

Liz Higgins: (20:39)
Hmm. Interesting.

Amanda Noyes: (20:41)
Right? So, trauma begets trauma. Likely we've all gone through some form of trauma or traumatic experience, whether we wanna call it traumatizing or not. And we might've been perfectly fine. But then, you know, 20 years later, 10 years later, we go through something at work and we're really bothered by it, and we can't figure out why. So effectively, anything that we go through growing up or throughout our lifetime can increase our odds of having a different reaction later in life. So they're all kind of related, right? So trauma begets trauma. If you've been traumatized before, you have an increased likelihood of being traumatized again around those circumstances. Does that make sense?

Liz Higgins: (21:18)
It does. It does. And I think I've, I've found myself having to work at times with people that come in with that question of, why am I so impacted by this as an adult? I should be X, Y, Z. And there's just so much self-judgment. But it's like, when you understand the workings of trauma and how it really impacts you, you start to get it and can be a little more compassionate.

Amanda Noyes: (21:40)
Right. And I think that's, that's it. Exactly. What we have to do is understand what's normal. So when I go in after a call and I'm talking to them, one of the things I talk about is that it, because you're, let's say you're showing every single symptom of PTSD. It doesn't mean that you actually have PTSD. Um, there's immediate reactions to trauma, which are normal. So if I saw something that was completely horrific for a little bit, I would be having hyper startle, I would be extra jumpy. I might struggle eating. I might feel sad, I might feel angry. I might feel, um, urges to do things, like drink or find ways to numb out. I might struggle sleeping. That doesn't mean I have PTSD, that means my body and my mind are reacting to something really horrific that I've seen.

Amanda Noyes: (22:30)
Those are appropriate reactions to an abnormal situation. So sometimes just simply normalizing what they're going through and letting them know that, 'No, you're not crazy. No, you're not weak. No, you don't necessarily even have PTSD right now in this moment. You are reacting appropriately to a very messed up situation.' So we'll go in and we'll talk about kind of what the common physical, emotional, mental and social reactions are. To normalize it and to let them know when your body's going through these things, your job is to take even extra care of yourself. So when we're having the traumatic reactions after a traumatic event, our job is to do even more self-care. Um, I think drinking water, um, which is huge. Water's probably the most, uh, the biggest takeaway from my, my psych eds when I give them, which is hilarious to me because people know they're supposed to drink water, but they don't actually know what it does.

Amanda Noyes: (23:23)
So if you are in a traumatic event or on scene, and, uh, when you go into those, you're actually in fight or flight mode. So our first responders are going into their realm that they're very, very good at, but their body, even if they're calm, is still in fight or flight mode because they, they've learned to kind of hone that and do what they need to do to stay alive and keep others alive. Well, they're gonna have a whole rush of hormones and stress hormones and different things to make them be able to react and be, you know, phenomenal in what they're doing. Right after that moment, their entire body's gonna be flooded and exhausted. So it's like they'll have a crash after that. And so one of the best things you can do is drink water. Um, I always use the example of massages. Like whenever you get a massage, what do they tell you to do right after?

Liz Higgins: (24:09)
Drink a ton of water.

Amanda Noyes: (24:10)
Drink a ton of water. Mm-hmm. 'Cause when you release all the stuff from the muscles, um, it can actually make you nauseated. It's the same concept. So after that, if we drink water and we allow ourselves to eat healthier, 'cause what we wanna do is go eat some junk food and grab a beer because we're...

Liz Higgins: (24:26)
Well, you got ahead of me because I was about to say. Okay. But what I'm guessing actually happens for many people is like, let me self-soothe really fast.

Amanda Noyes: (24:35)
So what our body is doing is trying to do things that are gonna make us feel better. So I don't blame anybody for wanting to drink. 'Cause that's gonna give you a dopamine hit. Right? Wanting to eat comfort foods. There's a lot of studies on the importance of comfort foods when we're not okay. Right? Um, impulsive things. So adrenaline rushes, most of my first responders do benefit from higher adrenaline lifestyles. So if they're doing things like that, what they're trying to do is self-soothe. And that is appropriate to self-soothe. The problem is, is the ways in which they're doing it is more likely to lead to the possibility of PTSD if we don't take care of our body after these moments. Um, and we don't allow ourself to heal because all the freak out that we're feeling is appropriate, but it's our body giving us messages that we need to make sure that we take care of ourselves.

Amanda Noyes: (25:28)
'Cause this was one call I might have to, to shake it off and go to another call now. And in that moment, you don't have time to really think. So when there's, like, there is a, a, a local department that had like, five things happen in one month, and it was a lot. It's not that they don't deal with it, but in this case it was because it was compounded. And so it wasn't that one call was worse than what they're used to, but it's because there was five of them. And it was hard. So in that moment, I'm not saying, 'Hey, get on a diet, never drink again. Be the healthiest, you know, perfect person.' What I'm saying is, in that month when you know that you're really struggling and you are showing symptoms of post-traumatic stress, which is appropriate, that you take extra care of yourself.

Amanda Noyes: (26:13)
So what we're trying to do is eat healthy. Because when you eat junk food, your body uses all of its resources to digest. Like, I always use the example of Jack in the Box, 'cause I love their tacos, but I'm not actually sure that they are real food . But I love them. Right? Like... is there even actual digestible things in here? But they're so good. But in that moment, it's gonna be harder for my body to use its resources to digest that. I need all of my first responders, um, after those, those difficult calls, after those, those heart wrenching moments to let their body be taken care of kindly so that they are able to reset and can continue to do some of the hard calls. When we take moments and we do extra care, we're likely not to have the long standing issues. Now I'm not saying therapy is required in that moment. Right? Um, but I will say therapy will speed it up. So like, let's say you have a bad call, call your therapist, go in for a couple sessions. You may only need a couple sessions, right?

Liz Higgins: (27:11)
Sure, sure.

Amanda Noyes: (27:12)
But the first step would be preferably before the call, be taking care of yourself already. Eat healthy, work out, talk to your spouse, which is another thing they never do. They don't talk to their spouses.

Liz Higgins: (27:23)
I definitely have questions about that. I mean, because that's the huge thing, right?

Amanda Noyes: (27:26)
Yeah. But if they're healthy prior to the call, then they're more likely to ride through that call better. And then knowing that when they have a bad call, um, that they're able to find the things that are gonna support them for their body to heal so they can keep taking those calls. Does that make sense?

Liz Higgins: (27:44)
Right. Yes. And I think through all of this wonderful information you're sharing, I kind of hear the theme of it's probably never too late. Like, you can honestly cultivate that healthy way of taking care of yourself and maybe developing these, um, nervous system, uh, self-care, you know, tools. Yeah. And, and even inside of maintaining this career, like it's doable.

Amanda Noyes: (28:10)
I, I withdraw, but I don't, it doesn't normally work on virtual as well. And since most people are listening, I'm gonna do my best to explain this. Um, before we pivot back to the communication. 'Cause I think that's an important thing since this is your world. So one of the things that I draw on the board is I draw, um, kind of a line to show what happens during trauma. So, uh, and I call it the, the... Well, to put it appropriately for this podcast, I'm gonna call it the "F It Line" . What we do is, um, I use the example of the Vegas shooting. Um, that was one of the most deadliest shootings, and it was completely unexpected. If you went to Vegas after that shooting, 90% of the population are gonna show symptoms of PTSD. So for the first two months, everybody in that city was traumatized. Appropriately so, right?

Amanda Noyes: (28:57)
But not everybody stayed traumatized. So if I looked at like, um, a graph at, I would have like at the 90% line, everybody's there, right? But over time, that line drops, right? And so only about, it's almost like we stabilize back down almost to normal, right? We go through the trauma and then we realize we're safe and we realize bad things sometimes happen and they don't make sense. It's sad and it's scary, but we're able to readjust back to, to life and being okay, and not constantly in fear, but some people, they'll be up at this top line at the 90% and they'll start to heal, and then another trauma happens. So it shoots back up and they'll start to heal and another trauma happens and it shoots back up. So it almost like it stabilizes up at the 90% where they're showing complete symptomatic.

Liz Higgins: (29:43)
Yeah.

Amanda Noyes: (29:44)
So at the top of the graph, it's, they're still at the top of the graph and they're very, very symptomatic, and they're not able to kind of go down that slope to even out and heal. So what you were saying is like, it just kind of, they stay stuck. So at what point is therapy gonna work? I call it the F It Line. My, my goal is for, for my, um, my first responders to never get to the F It Line. If you are taking care of yourself, you'll realize that, okay, I'm not in a good place. I need to take care of my body. And then as you heal, your body stabilizes and your symptoms go down, right? But if a person, which is, they always tease that every time they're already at the F It Line. So you kinda start to heal, you start to heal, and it goes back up and you just kind of give up. And your body's like, alright, I'm done. F it. I'm just gonna stay here and I'm gonna stay traumatized. It doesn't matter how long you've been on the F It Line, and you're stuck at the top because therapy can get you unstuck. I had one client that had a trauma at four years old, and she saw me at 64.

Liz Higgins: (30:42)
Mm-hmm.

Amanda Noyes: (30:43)
60 years later. And we got her unstuck. So, you're right. It does not matter how long you've been stuck in your trauma, um, therapy - and sometimes other alternative means than therapy - can get you unstuck.

Liz Higgins: (30:57)
Yeah. Absolutely. Do you find it's usually a combination for people? Or have you seen like, great success with them just working with you through CPT?

Amanda Noyes: (31:08)
I feel like I'm biased . Um, I, well, we just do, I think we do such a good job here. That's why I like trauma therapy, because people actually get better and they get better pretty relatively fast - within three to four months. Most therapy modalities... The trauma modalities are phenomenal. Some of them are super fast. Ours' on average is three to four months. So 12 sessions. But since we're outpatient, we're not in a study, we can go and do a really thorough job. But, EMDR one of, um, the sergeants at Dallas PD, um, was like, had one session and it changed his life with EMDR. So there's a lot of these amazing modalities. ETT, um, is also another one. Emotional Transformative Therapy, I believe.

Liz Higgins: (31:50)
Uh huh. Emotional Transformation Technique.

Amanda Noyes: (31:51)
That one. Mm-hmm. That one. Why do I mess that up? Um, that one, um, can have improvement pretty fast as well. So it really doesn't take that long for it, it to improve. Um, sometimes we just need a session or two, but, but yeah. So we just need to start sometimes. But with the other modalities, I've also had people get, um, really just, there's retreats now that they do, like American Warrior Association and R3, they do retreats. Um, I just met a gentleman who does the Veteran Freedom Retreat. Um, and these retreats have been lifesaving. So sometimes a weekend away through these modalities that are, like, moral injuries. So a lot of, it's not even therapy. So, um, one lady was telling me that her daughter got out in nature. Like she, they tried a million different medications and nothing helped. This little girl who had a really, really complicated trauma past and she got a job working outdoors and all of a sudden the symptoms fell away. So for everybody, I'm, I'm obviously a fan of, um, therapy, but I love that there are so many options out there. So it doesn't necessarily have to be trauma therapy, but something, something that helps you reconnect with yourself and your loved ones, I think can, can make a very big impact in healing, um, healing the traumas.

Liz Higgins: (33:07)
That, that's wonderful. And I'm kind of thinking about the first responder industry, community, like on an internal level. 'Cause I'm, I'm not a part of that. Um, I'm curious... Being on the outside and feeling curious about what's behind the doors. Like, is there a lot of support for first responders from other first responders? Like, can you speak to, you know, is this something that's encouraged at this point in2024?

Amanda Noyes: (33:37)
Um, yes and no.

Liz Higgins: (33:39)
Mm-hmm.

Amanda Noyes: (33:40)
So you've gotta remember, so we're dealing with first responders. We actually, um, kind of rope in first responders and veterans in the same category, even when they're very different. Active duty military is different than veterans. Veterans and first responders are different. Police are very different than fire. Fire's very different than crime scene. Crime scene is different than dispatch or call takers. And then we've got the frontline workers. And doctors are completely different. Nurses and doctors operate completely differently, different mindsets. So part of it is you've got a wide realm. We try to kind of put it into a block so we can understand. And the reason I think people use first responders is so that the community is more supportive of the helping professions. Because I will tell you, they are hard. You know, you, you're in a helping field.

Amanda Noyes: (34:25)
Although no one notices therapy , which is another thing we need to work on, is making sure we support our therapists. But because we're not frontline, but we're handling so much that I think we also need to start appreciating our therapists more. But the term first responders is meant to support that community. Support for the helping field. Um, but internally, everyone's different. Um, hospitals, I, I will say there is a theme that the higher ups of the departments, so whether it be a fire department, a police department, a hospital... Um, the higher ups or the red tape of an organization is not supportive. People are trying, everybody's trying, uh, the government's trying, the, the grant funders are trying. People are trying to make mental health more well known. And I, I don't, uh, there's a lot of reasons why I think we're still stuck, but the, the long answer here is that internal support from departments isn't fantastic, even for departments that are trying very hard and are doing a lot of resources.

Amanda Noyes: (35:29)
Um, but among, uh, the colleagues, it, it's kind of both. Some are amazing. Um, people often talk about like the, the generational difference in the old, the old crusty firefighters versus the young strapping ones. And that the young ones are all about emotional intelligence, which I will say I am so proud of, uh, millennials and Gen Z because I think they are owning and holding that better. But you'd be surprised some of the, you know, quote unquote old crusty firefighters are the ones leading the mental health initiatives. They're amazing. So we've got some young ones that don't believe in it, and some old ones that are all for it. And I think when people get a little bit healthier in their own mental health, the second anyone gets healthier, they wanna share it. So like, we'll have people come in who didn't believe in therapy and they're like, 'Oh my gosh, this is not what I thought it was gonna be. I picture, you know what, everything shows on tv', which is all incorrect. .

Liz Higgins: (36:24)
Oh my gosh. All of it. Like, why ?

Amanda Noyes: (36:27)
It's like, why are there so many ethical violations here? Like, you can't talk about that to that person. So just know that everything on television and on shows is wrong and your therapist isn't talking about you to other people behind your back without consent. Um, or you know, yeah. I'm gonna get off that. I should stop.

Liz Higgins: (36:43)
No, preach. It's true. You are right on what the TV shows for therapy.

Amanda Noyes: (36:44)
But oftentimes it's not laying on a couch and just talking. If you go to a specialized therapy, like with Millennial Life Counseling, which is specialized and trained in working with couples, you're going to get results. You're not just gonna sit on a couch and talk for five years and get no results. If you come to my practice, which is a specialized trauma treatment, um, like we warn people up front. Like this isn't, if, if you're just looking to kind of process, we're not the right place. Um, because we're gonna put you to work and we're gonna try to heal the symptoms. And some people aren't ready. And that's okay too. Like, some people think they're ready and they try and they can't and then they'll come back when they are. And that's okay. Even just trying is great. But if you're not ready yet, that's okay. But we do challenge to get better.

Liz Higgins: (37:28)
I think that's great. That's wonderful though. I mean, you're facilitating growth when the readiness is there, but you're also not pushing people into something for the sake of, you gotta do this, you gotta do this. You know, like it's a hard place.

Amanda Noyes: (37:40)
I was talking to one of my clinicians about this the other day. The goal is with... 'cause we're a little bit more persistent. Trauma therapy is different. 'cause it's not just anxiety, it's not just depression. And so our goal is to gently push. Have you heard the example of a balloon?

Liz Higgins: (37:56)
Maybe? I don't know. Tell it!

Amanda Noyes: (37:57)
Okay. So the theory is, is to blow up a balloon, you need just the right amount of pressure. If you blow too much, you're gonna pop the balloon. If you don't blow hard enough, the balloon won't inflate. So our goal with trauma therapy is that we do push a little bit more than other therapies because PTSD and trauma, those are diseases of avoidance. Who in their right mind would come into an office and wanna sit down and talk about the worst moments they've ever been through, right? No one. Sane people do not wanna do that. But so again, PTSD is a disease of avoidance, but if we take the time and we have the courage to address what we're struggling with, we can actually stay in a field we love. We can actually have healthy relationships with our, with our partners, and especially our children. So it's having the courage to push just enough. So in our practice, we push just enough. So I might check in on a client that ghosted me 'cause yes, clients do ghost. And please don't ghost your therapist, y'all! Just tell us. It's okay. We don't mind. But we'd rather not be wondering if you are ok.

Liz Higgins: (38:55)
We've learned to, we've learned to self-regulate in that.

Amanda Noyes: (39:00)
We'd rather be fired than ghosted. Yeah.

Liz Higgins: (39:03)
But it's, it's one of those things. I think what you're doing right there is like normalizing. That's a part of it sometimes.

Amanda Noyes: (39:08)
Yes, it's totally part of it. And therapy's interesting, especially with trauma therapy. Um, and I would imagine the same is true for couples that you actually are almost closer to your therapist, 'cause you're working through some really personal things, right? So the worst, most horrific moment of your life, you have to be with someone who you feel safe with. So if I remind somebody of their mean aunt, or, um, I talk too much. I had one client tell me I moved too much. True. Valid. Totally get that. Um, if that's something that's uncomfortable for them, which isn't a hit on me, it just means that we need to find them someone they feel perfectly safe with. So, if for some reason you're with a therapist and they're not a good fit, it's okay to talk to them. And if they're a good therapist, they will help you find the right therapist.

Liz Higgins: (39:52)
Yes, exactly.

Amanda Noyes: (39:53)
But a lot of times in my field, uh, with trauma, because it's a disease of avoidance, clients will ghost out of fear. And so we just check in a little bit. We don't ever wanna be a used car salesman, but I mean, if someone ghosts, I'm going to reach back out and check in. They don't have to respond. Um, I might reach out one or two times and just letting them know I'm always here. But you'd be surprised how many times, um, people come back when I reach out because they're like, 'Oh, you do care.' It's almost like a subconscious test. It's like, well, I'm, I'm not wanted anyways, or I don't wanna deal with that. I don't wanna deal with trauma. So they don't wanna come back, but they really do wanna get better. But it's scary. So knowing that your therapist cares enough to, to check in and to make sure, you know, you're not running away. If you're, if you might have a chance to get better, that sometimes helps. It's also why I have Lily. 'Cause people are more likely to come in when I have a dog.

Liz Higgins: (40:45)
Right. And, and Lily, is she kind of just like this presence or does she actually participate in the things that are happening in therapy?

Amanda Noyes: (40:53)
So Lily's a fun case. She's a Covid case. Um, and she's deep in sleep, otherwise I would wake her up and have y'all meet her. Um, she was trained to read empathy. So I use her as a tool. So we are a, uh, I'm a certified handler and she is an animal assisted therapy dog. So there's the animal assisted activity dogs that go to the hospitals and that are just kind of pet by random strangers. She's an animal assisted therapy dog, and I am her handler. So we are a team, and effectively she's a tool that I can use. And before I was able to gauge, um, people's emotions, if they were anxious, she would go in her little crate. And if they were sad, she would lay across their feet and it was so sweet.

Amanda Noyes: (41:39)
But then Covid happened and we had to work remotely, and I had a child. And so she's a little bit more anxious now. So now she's a good example of, uh, she kind of barks and greets people when they come in and she's got a German Shepherd bark. So we always have to warn people like, 'Hey, we do have a dog. Um, she does have, uh, a, she's a vocal greeter.' Um, and people love it because they're like, she's still so important to everybody, even though she, like, greets them with anxiety. And they love it. They're like, okay, so she's still important. So it's okay for me to have anxiety and I'm also important even if I'm not perfect. Um, so she's had such a, a sweet role for that. But she will still kind of tell me depending on where she's at in the room and how she's interacting, because my clients... I mean, dude. I've got first responders, they will present perfectly calm, but internally they're freaking out, right?

Amanda Noyes: (42:27)
A regular person might not notice. I might not notice, but she can smell it. So she knows if someone's not okay. So she can actually smell. It's not necessarily anxiety, but the different things that we produce, she knows, right? Yeah. So one of the things that I deal with a lot, a common theme is that my spouse can't handle X, Y, Z. I work with the spouses. I'll tell you, if you are married to a first responder, you're already badass. They can handle more than you give them credit for. So more often than not, I find that my first responders, because they're in that helping and healing role, they feel it is their job to take care of others and to be a, a caregiver and to, you know, effectively kind of be a hero, which is a whole important word.

Amanda Noyes: (43:16)
I, I can go into later why that's a very controversial and complicated word. Right? So we've got, well some, so I'll just say this real quick. So not everyone's curious, but hero is hard because a lot of people signed up for this and they don't see themselves as heroes. And um, that's a lot to live up to. So if we keep putting this term on our first responders, they think they have to be something other than human. They're human. I spend half of my time, this sounds so bad, but half of my time is breaking these men and women down. I'm like, nah, you are human. And whether we like it or not, no matter how much we wanna not be human, and I know this from personal experience, you know this from personal experience.

Amanda Noyes: (43:55)
We're human, we're gonna make mistakes, we're gonna mess up, we're gonna have emotions, things are gonna hit us. Every now and then, there'll be something that's sad and it'll hit me sideways. I may not react in session, but we hear certain things. Right? I remember hearing about, um, the death of a child when I had, my daughter was the same age. She was 18 months. And that session just hit me sideways. I was fine in session, but it still hit me later. So when we put the term hero on people and we're not humanizing our, um, first responders and everyone in that field, that's really hard. And then they also think, oh, well because I'm a first responder and I do this for a living, I'm not supposed to be bothered. Yes, you are. You're human. You're supposed to be bothered by certain things.

Liz Higgins: (44:39)
Mm-hmm .

Amanda Noyes: (44:39)
And so that's, that's one thing. So with the hero, them not thinking they're allowed to be human, that also kind of bleeds into the home life. Because at work, on a call is not the time to break down and cry. 'Cause that could put their lives in danger. Right? I used to talk about an active, um, uh, fire battlefield of some sort. Right? So in Iraq or Afghanistan, if someone's dealing with like active fire, no. I don't want you to feel your feelings in that moment. Absolutely not. I want you to stay alive. But when you get back to your barracks or you get back to the fog, I want you to give yourself a second to be human. But we think that because we can't do it in the moment that we're not allowed to do it later.

Amanda Noyes: (45:19)
And my first responders often think I'm not allowed to feel and I'm not allowed to share with my spouse because they're terrified that they're gonna traumatize somebody else. Where they mess up is, um, number one, the spouse is - again - a badass and they can handle way more. I mean, they're dealing with first responders, so obviously they can handle more than most people think. And if they can't, that's okay. Um, then you would have to find another outlet. But for the most part, in the vast majority of cases, the spouses are, are already stronger than the first responder thinks. It's their own fear of traumatizing somebody else. Right? But in sharing... Go ahead.

Liz Higgins: (45:58)
Well, no, that's bringing up a question for me of like, and I don't know if maybe you were gonna go there, but is there kind of an etiquette to use? Whatever descriptive kind of word, like, how to go about sharing with a partner what one has kind of experienced? Or, or you know, what does that, what do you suggest for like that debrief process to be like for a partner?

Amanda Noyes: (46:19)
Well, and debrief is a funny, a funny term too. Everything's controversial in this field. The departments don't like debriefs 'cause there's been a lot of studies and, if you debrief and you have to talk about it, it can actually be more harmful. People think that debrief means you actually have to talk about the trauma and it doesn't always help. Right? 'Cause normally what we're struggling with with PTSD isn't the trauma, it's not the more horrific parts of the trauma. It's how we're experiencing that trauma. So what you need to talk to your spouse about is not what happened, but what you're experiencing. Whatever it was that you saw, how is that impacting you? Right? What is that doing inside your body? What is that doing to your mind? What keeps replaying for you? And sometimes it's the more, you know, it's, it's certain smells, it's certain visions and stuff, but every single thing with that is normally related to something else.

Amanda Noyes: (47:05)
And our perception of things. So if you're speaking with your spouse, the huge thing is you don't actually have to you, you're not gonna traumatize them by talking about your experience in it. Right. So just saying, I had a really hard day. I saw something that, that brought up this terrible fear in me. Um, and you know, I think one of my, if they have enough insight, one of my deeper fears is X, Y, Z, right? Or even just letting your spouse know if you don't wanna go through the details, because some of them are fairly grizzly. That's why my practice actually says that we deal with the traumas that can make other therapists cry. 'Cause I actually told my, my own therapist one time, and she's phenomenal, but when I told her, when she went and covered her mouth with her hands, it just shocked her because it was such a horrific trauma. And I'm like that, that's why, because I think my practice is kind of ready for all the bizarre. And so it almost like calms people down when we're like, expecting something worse. They're like, oh, okay. No, no, I've got you. I've, I've done that trauma before.

Liz Higgins: (48:01)
They're just in disbelief. But yeah.

Amanda Noyes: (48:05)
Well 'cause it gets normalized. Because there, there's other first responders. I think we think when we're in the first responder field that we're so disconnected, but there are first responders and frontline workers and helpers everywhere. Right. We also work with civilians. We work with quite a few civilians who've been in, um, you know, really bad accidents or seen really bad accidents or gone into help even though they're not technically in the helping field. Right? So I think we, we get stuck in thinking that we need to process the trauma in detail, which isn't accurate. You don't actually have to process the trauma. Right. Cognitive processing therapy originally had a trauma statement, but they did a deconstruction of the trauma modality and tested it again without the trauma statement. And you're actually able to process with just as, uh, effective results, uh, the trauma without actually doing a trauma statement. It's phenomenal. Yeah.

Liz Higgins: (48:57)
And for people listening that maybe have no clue what CPT really is, like... I think that's such a helpful thing to hear because I still think there's plenty of assumptions for most that enter into trauma therapy or seek that out for something for themselves where they think they're going to be asked to relive it, to retell it, to move through it. And the evidence really shows that that is not what it has to be.

Amanda Noyes: (49:22)
Yeah. It doesn't, it absolutely doesn't have to be. Cognitive processing therapy is pretty good, um, about not hitting on it. And I know that there's a lot of, and a lot of the therapies actually stabilize you throughout. So let's say we do have you talk about something, you're in the process of stabilization. EMDR is wonderful because it's got a lot of setup in advance, and containment, and different things to help you feel safe. They have a safe, uh, place. I'm gonna mess this up since I'm not an EMDR therapist. But, um, a lot of the modalities have things like safe places and containment so that you're in a good place before you process trauma.

Liz Higgins: (49:55)
Resourcing. Mm-hmm.

Amanda Noyes: (49:56)
Yeah. And so it, it's not as, trauma therapy isn't as terrifying as it sounds. And a lot of it's just how we are reacting to the trauma from our own history and our own perception of what it is. Or it could be moral injury, right? So we have to look at that person and see where they're at and help them process that. But there's no reason not to connect every bit, every study that's ever been done is if you're connecting with people who you feel safe with. If it can't be your wife, and sometimes it can't, right? For the most part, I will tell you spouses are amazing, but that's not always the case. Right? Let's say your, your spouse has mental health issues of their own or something's going on and for whatever reason it's not a safe place. There are so many other things out there.

Amanda Noyes: (50:40)
There's peer supports. Um, there's... So most departments, um, and we're starting to spread this, so peer support is where you don't have to go to a therapist, you just call and there's somebody who's got a little bit of mental health training, but they're not a clinician, but they're a first responder too. And you can talk to 'em and be like, 'Hey man, this just happened and it's really messing with me.' And you're able to talk to a peer. And sometimes that's all people need. We're starting to do a program with the Dallas District Attorney's office that are doing peer supports and stuff because they have to look through all of the photos. Which is horribly traumatizing sometimes. So even other professions are realizing the impact of peer support. So if you can't speak to your spouse, there are options. And let's say it's police and you don't wanna speak to a peer support at your department.

Amanda Noyes: (51:28)
So let's say you're Dallas PD and you don't wanna speak to somebody that's peer support at Dallas PD, there's actually, um, something that, uh, Garland PD did, and, uh, they started the Overwatch Program. And you can call Overwatch and you can get a peer support from a different department, and you can also call COP line. So the point is, is even if you can't talk to that person, connection and going through this and realizing we're not alone. And the really horrific traumas, because I think that's what happens. We see all these horrible things on a daily, like five to 12 horrible things in one day, it makes us think the world's not safe. When we're seeing it through a filter, and it's like this tunnel and it's our random experience because we're in the helping field, that's not the norm for a vast majority of the population. They're not gonna experience that. So talking to another first responder or somebody in your field who's also going through that can be exceptionally healing. And that connection that you specialize in and what you're trying to work with, whether it be your spouse, your friends, or a peer support network is vital in being okay.

Liz Higgins: (52:38)
That's so amazing that you can affirm that for us. And we know that about you. I wanna ask, because you did mention earlier, like you will have the partner in session. You're not doing couples therapy. I know you've been really clear about that, but, um, you know, what do you think are maybe some of the unique needs for a couple that does actually end up in the office together? One is a first responder, something like that. Um, I don't know, can you just kind of say a little bit about what their unique dynamic kind of needs to feel safe in the experience and maybe eventually get that, uh, traction going towards healing and reconnecting?

Amanda Noyes: (53:22)
Absolutely. Um, so you and I had been talking about this earlier. So in addition to, uh, Finding Freedom Therapy, my practice, I work with the, um, it's a network. It's called the DFW First Responders Support Network. And it's, um, only a couple years old, but it's a voluntary network of therapists and first responders both working together to help all first responders in the DFW area have easy access to mental health resources. So one of the ways in which we've done that is we have created a website. Well, we need to build our own website right now. Um, John Bergdorf from the DFW Scanner, he's amazing. He's part of one of the ones, uh, with Care Breed Love who started this, um, uh, network. And he's housing our list of vetted providers. So on DFWscanners.org, I believe it is...

Liz Higgins: (54:16)
You said net earlier, but we're gonna link it, we're gonna link it in the Show Notes. Mm-hmm.

Amanda Noyes: (54:19)
So, DFWscanner.net first responders, there is a list of culturally competent providers who have worked with first responders. So the first thing that I think will make couples feel safe is to have a culturally competent provider who understands that first responder couples can't operate the same way regular couples operate. It's, it's equivalent to a weekly deployment that they're going through. And if anything's going on in our society, if there are riots, if there are, um, if there's a pandemic, all of our first responders are in the thick of that. So having a culturally competent therapist who can understand kind of the roughness. Like I've, I've had a couple, um, inexperienced couples therapists who were a little bit, uh, worried that one of the partners was abusive because I mean, all language very just tough around the edges, right? Sure, sure. So, understood.

Amanda Noyes: (55:30)
And it's just part of it, right? It's like they're, they're gonna talk to each other a lot more bluntly because the first responders speak bluntly. So it's kind of going back to understanding that first responders have habits, um, and, uh, kinda like neuroplasticity. If we do the same thing again and again and again, um, it's hard to break it at home, right? So if they're constantly scanning and surveying a room, it's really hard to go on date night. Right? Um, so if they're constantly trying to take care of others, it's really hard for them to always realize their family might need that too. So understanding that what they do for a living can impact their relationship and understanding that they still need those skills at work. We can't take those away at work, but we need to help the couple figure out how to navigate that on the home front so they can both have their needs met and they can both see what the other's going through and normalize their situation. So I think the first step, uh, is culturally competent therapists who understand the first responder population enough and understand that it's gonna have a higher level of stress hormones within the relationship.

Liz Higgins: (56:36)
Sure.

Amanda Noyes: (56:37)
Um, it's gonna be a little heightened because it's, they're constantly heightened because the first responder's constantly out doing the hard work, and the spouse or partner is constantly at home having to worry and also handle all of the other things. Right?

Liz Higgins: (56:58)
Yeah.

Amanda Noyes: (57:00)
Every, so the stress levels in the US right now are higher than they've ever been. We've got access to, people have access to us nonstop with our phones. So like, we're never really off. So our stress levels are higher for everyone in the US. You add in trying to actually save people's lives and then worry that your partner is going to lose their life, that is going to even increase stress higher. So understanding what that's like and that some of it can't change. So how do we adapt? How do we get to a place where we can live healthy, happy lives and still connect to our families, and especially to our kids, right?

Liz Higgins: (57:34)
Yeah. You've mentioned that a couple of times and you know, certainly I know, being a parent myself, just the vulnerability and the sensitivity of a young person in the world. And, um, do you tend to find, like using a healthy example, maybe if a first responder and their partner have cultivated a pretty healthy grasp on this stuff and they're, they're doing well at navigating it, at managing it, that that really does like, ripple down to children being able to have a sturdier, you know, upbringing in all that mental, emotional, you know, stress like you're saying?

Amanda Noyes: (58:11)
Absolutely. Um, when we handle our own, um, mental health, we create an environment where our kids can thrive. So, um, at my practice, uh, 'cause we do specialized trauma treatment, um, until recently we didn't work with kids. Now we have Jess and she's phenomenal. And she, um, she used to be a nanny, so she's dealt with some of the, the more tougher cases. Oppositional defiant disorder. Neurodivergent. Almost non fully-functioning autism. Like she has dealt with these amazing kids with these amazing abilities and helped them grow and be the best versions of themselves. So now we, if anyone needs therapy for kids, we are doing that. But prior until we found the right person, we weren't. And what we would do is we have parenting groups. So part of, um, treating trauma from every angle is we would help the parents have a reflective parenting group.

Amanda Noyes: (59:04)
We use Circle of Security, and we do the reflective parenting group and help the parents see their own parts and things so they're better able to connect to their children. Um, and I've done that with, um, a colonel. We've done it with, um, a lot of military and first responders. And they thrive in that because it teaches them a different way to be with their children. If a first responder tries to be with their child the way like the military and bootcamp tries to teach you to be, or, um, you know... As police officers at times we have to shut our emotions off if we try to teach our children to do it that way when they're like three and four and they need those devotions, um, that could cause damage. Um, so simply educating parents on how their own mental health can impact their children is vital. Um, and a lot of, uh, people will come in, honestly, children... One of the number one reasons, um, people seek trauma therapy - in my practice at least - because, um, their child isn't handling, like, they keep getting mad at their child and they know they're causing damage. So they'll come in, not always because of spousal issues or partner issues, they'll come in because they don't wanna be a bad mom or dad.

Liz Higgins: (01:00:13)
Ah. That's, that's really interesting to hear. But man, I can make a lot of sense of that for sure.

Amanda Noyes: (01:00:18)
Yeah. There's also like, I think they've got a lot of really sweet books for first responders kids now. Um, but one of the ones that makes me giggle, um, 'cause it's true is "Why Is Daddy So Mad?"

Liz Higgins: (01:00:31)
I'm only giggling 'cause you're giggling.

Amanda Noyes: (01:00:33)
But it, well, it, we, we, we tease a little bit, but it it's true. It's like, it's a funny title of a book, but it's such an important book because the thing is why is Daddy so mad? And daddy understanding why he's mad can help his child normalize emotions. If Daddy came home from a really hard call, it's appropriate for Daddy to be mad in that moment. Righ? So helping our kids understand that emotions are okay and some moments we're not gonna be okay. So we can actually normalize it, right? So we can giggle about, it's a hilarious title for a book, but it's such a powerful thing to help kids understand that it's not them, they're amazing, but their parents are doing really, really hard work. And, you know, I, I do this with my daughter too. Like, I'm a therapist and it's still hard for me to emotionally regulate sometimes. So if I'm ever having a bad day, I'll even say, you know, mommy's just trying to figure out how to emotionally regulate. I need a second, baby. And letting her see that it's okay to figure out what are the different ways we can regulate our systems because we are human. We're gonna have bad days, we're gonna, um, gonna be, um, have, you know, bad parenting moments, which are natural and honestly necessary. 'Cause if we're a perfect parent, that's actually more harm because our child will never see us recover.

Liz Higgins: (01:01:47)
So incredibly true. And I mean, I sit in that space a lot being, um, I come at trauma from that developmental and relational trauma work, um, where a lot of those childhood stories are coming out from the adult client with me. And it's just so true. The impact of what is modeled and what is taught, oftentimes with no direct teaching involved, it's the modeling that we get. And so like you're talking about your daughter and you're not only showing her that it's okay to, but you're showing her how to. And this is like showing how this new way of being with yourself and then with others that you really care about is done. And I just can hear it. You're saying it all so eloquently, it's like, oh, thank you. Nothing about this is like needing to be perfect, needing to get anything right. Needing to not feel X, Y, Z. It's like, it's allowing humanness to really come through. Learning to embrace it.

Amanda Noyes: (01:02:45)
Absolutely. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Liz Higgins: (01:02:46)
Well, you're amazing. This conversation has been really amazing. I'm trying to like, uh, I'm trying to think about how to bring it full circle. 'Cause I really feel like I could sit here for another hour and talk to you, but, but maybe to like, pull it together for the sake of today and everything that we've talked about with first responders, what would you maybe say to people listening that have been trying to discern, like if they should try to get help? Maybe it is the partner of a first responder, um, maybe it is the first responder themselves. What would be kind of your word of encouragement to somebody that's thinking about that?

Amanda Noyes: (01:03:26)
I think... Hey, a lot of times we as humans minimize, right? It's, like, all of my first responders minimize, I think most every human minimizes. It's like, oh, what I'm doing, I guess it's not that bad because I deal with the crazy traumas, right? I think the first step is understanding that whatever you're going through matters, right? It doesn't really matter if you think it's bad enough or not. When it comes to trauma, if it's impacting you, it's bad enough. Um, you know, you don't have to have, uh, a leg cut off to need stitches. Sometimes you just need stitches. You don't need to go into surgery. It's okay. If we got a cut on our leg and um, it was bleeding profusely enough, we would go get stitches and it's not a big deal. That's true for therapy as well. It doesn't have to be the worst marriage in the world. In fact, I would rather people come in when they're a little worried to get the support they need so they can keep going on the path they want rather than waiting until it's so bad that it's hard to come back from. Right?

Liz Higgins: (01:04:26)
I mean, yeah. And that I almost hear you saying, if you're thinking about it, it's probably past the point where, where maybe you're ready to, to go ahead and come in.

Amanda Noyes: (01:04:34)
And it's okay to reach out. It doesn't mean that you're bad at, um, at relationships, it means you're human and relationships are difficult. If you're in a first responder, uh, field, there are a lot of fears about going into treatment. People are worried about demotion or they won't get promoted or they'll like, because, you know, even within my career... So within the last 10 years, I've had clients stripped of their badge or gun for going to therapy for like, not even, and I think it was anxiety, but it doesn't make sense so that, that's changing. Um, but if you do have that fear, um, there's a lot of workarounds. Like, if you're paying out of pocket, you don't always have to report to the department. So, um, there is help. You're not alone. All couples, all couples, not just first responders. Um, and even the healthy couple, it really is the healthiest couples are the ones that go to therapy.

Amanda Noyes: (01:05:28)
Um, so I think knowing that, um, connection is vital for us to heal. Um, so having a healthy marriage is gonna help us be a healthier human being for ourselves as well. When we have a healthy support network, we have cheerleaders and support, we are more likely to be the best, most effective version of ourselves. Right? So, um, when I have people come in for trauma therapy, um, I'll often bring the spouse in and let them know kind of what's gonna happen, because sometimes my clients will get a lot more irritable before they get better. So I want the spouse to know that and be prepared. And then we'll also try to do in conjunction, once they're stable enough to have trauma or relational therapy or marriage and family therapy on the side as well, because we can't fully heal on our own.

Amanda Noyes: (01:06:17)
We, we do need that connection. Um, so I think, uh, for anybody who is within the first responder field to know that there are quite a few, uh, culturally competent, uh, first responder therapists within the community, um, if you are in a helping field that doesn't get listed often, or even that I might've missed, know it still counts. If you are within the helping field and you were triggered by something, it counts and it's worthy of, of going in and getting support. Whether that be therapy, which is obviously my favorite, but it doesn't have to be. Sometimes we just need connection. We need peer support. Um, we need to spend more time with our families. Um, there's also a lot of, like, the alternative therapies like equine therapy or duck hunting. I just heard about, um, helicopters for heroes and they do like hog hunting. There's a million different things out there.

Liz Higgins: (01:07:11)
Wow. Right. Fascinating.

Amanda Noyes: (01:07:12)
And there's a lot for first responders, too. So I think my challenge would be to, to number one, we need to normalize that bad horrific moments will happen and it's completely appropriate to have a reaction to that. That doesn't mean there's anything wrong with you. It means you're human and you should have a reaction. I'm actually more worried about the people who have no reaction at all. Right?

Liz Higgins: (01:07:38)
Yes, fascinating. I mean that's probably one of the greatest takeaways, um, in listening you today, is that those trauma responses are not bad and they're not wrong.

Amanda Noyes: (01:07:50)
They're not negative either, actually.

Liz Higgins: (01:07:51)
Completely appropriate. Right? Yeah.

Amanda Noyes: (01:07:54)
So we have to normalize that, and I think just normalizing it will make people feel better. Um, so you can go to therapy when you're in that normal reactive state, um, and it'll help it speed it up. But sometimes we just need to do extra self-care, right? So I think I want people to understand that these reactions are natural and normal and we need to normalize. But I also wanna normalize therapy and, um, mental health resources. So not just therapy alone, but being willing to say, 'Hey, my body's telling me something. My, um, relationship with my spouse or my partner is telling me something. Maybe it's I've gotta do extra self-care right now. Or maybe I need to look into one of these resources that are out there that's gonna help me get to the best version of myself again.' Right? So we've gotta allow some space to heal. So after those events, we do need a little bit of healing time. Like a couple months is natural to have those feelings. But by doing things to take care of ourselves within that time. Does that make sense?

Liz Higgins: (01:08:51)
Yeah, okay. Absolutely. So if people are interested in learning more about you and some of these specialized services that you and your team have to offer, can you tell us a little bit about that and just where people can find you?

Amanda Noyes: (01:09:03)
Yes. Um, so my practice is Finding Freedom Therapy. Uh, we're a small therapy practice in, uh, north Dallas. We're right off of 635 and Midway. Not too far from the Galleria. And we're right next to Addison. My window's actually looking at Addison right now. We have our website, which is findingfreedomtherapy.com. And it's actually an information website. So I've got a ton of information to help you understand about trauma and certain reactions. Um, and we're, uh, you're also welcome to always call me. Um, the direct line to the practice, which actually normally goes to me is 972-674-9166, or if you don't like talking to humans because you're a millennial or after, um, you're welcome to text or email me. Um, and my email is amanda@findingfreedomtherapy.com. Um, but we have an amazing team. I've got Mark who's been here, Mark Chapman has been with us, um, for three or four years now, and he's got 35 years of experience.

Amanda Noyes: (01:10:01)
He actually worked with the Department of Defense in Germany and dealt with the, um, the service members coming out of Iraq and Afghanistan and worked at Fort Hood for a little bit, which is now Fort Cosas. Um, I've got, Christina Serna, and she is a Navy veteran. And she is phenomenal. She's got a passion to help first responders. She's also bilingual in English and Spanish. And so we've got such an amazing group. And now we've got Jess who does children, Jess Harris. And she just pulls from her nannying experience and her trauma training. Everybody at my practice is trained in an evidence-based modality. And we are very well-versed in some of the more horrific traumas. We're also an allied practice, um, so we work with everybody and, um, that includes anybody within the LGBTQIA plus community. We also work with civilians, so you do not have to be a first responder. We do sometimes see really horrific things. Um, so we work with everybody, uh, virtual and in person and, uh, anywhere in the state of Texas. Um, we would love to help and be honored to, to walk you through, um, some of the more horrific things that you've ever been through.

Liz Higgins: (01:11:16)
And I am glad that you said that piece about virtual, because that was a question I had. Like, it is still, um, effective. You are still able to work with clients virtually that have gone through some of these next level traumas. Right?

Amanda Noyes: (01:11:29)
So prior to COVID, I had done it. Um, I had worked with some pretty, um, like special forces doing virtual. But it's not my favorite. But then Covid hit and I had to turn everybody to virtual. And even my Green Berets, like some of my special forces men and women were very, uh, were okay with it. I was surprised. And so all the studies, um, that I have read have shown that they're still just as much of a connection, which I didn't think was possible. But I'll tell you, there are a lot of clients that I have never met and I, I don't know which ones they are because I feel so connected to all of them. So Covid, I, you know, I'm often in the office and my clients often do come in, but a lot of them stayed virtual because they feel just as connected. So, we do our best to do a good job to still be connected. Um, and you'd be surprised how much we can get done virtually. And that it's just as effective. So if you asked me prior to Covid, I would've said Nah. But now I'm like, well it's actually, yeah,

Liz Higgins: (01:12:27)
You were ahead of the game then to even do it before Covid because I wasn't . So when we had to pivot, we were definitely a little nervous about, oh, will couples work still be as effective? But we were pleasantly surprised, still able to really get a lot of good work done. So I'm really glad to hear that that's an option for people that are maybe curious about working specifically with you and your team.

Amanda Noyes: (01:12:49)
Yes. And we would love to help anybody anywhere. Sometimes a lot of my first responders do actually appreciate, like... I've got a lot of cops from Houston 'cause they don't wanna be seen in Houston.

Liz Higgins: (01:12:58)
Yeah. I mean, that makes so much sense. It kind of like really permits that confidentiality protections, uh, piece for them. So that makes sense.

Amanda Noyes: (01:13:06)
Not worried about running into your therapist and it's nice.

Liz Higgins: (01:13:10)
That's awesome. Amanda, thank you so much! This has been really such a wonderful conversation. I mean, you are doing incredible work, very meaningful work, and our state, our world needs what you're doing. So thank you for taking this time to be with me and share a little bit about you guys!

Amanda Noyes: (01:13:29)
Aw, that's, you're just the sweetest person. Thank you so much for having me on! I love the work that you're doing. I love Millennial Life Counseling. Um, and it's been just phenomenal to see, like, all the stuff that you're putting out. And I think it's really wonderful when practices take the time to put out important information for free. 'Cause there's a lot of people who can't come in or can't afford therapy. And I think hearing your podcast and knowing about resources and knowing, or even just normalizing sometimes that's all we need. It's super powerful. So I think that's really, um, a wonderful service!

Liz Higgins: (01:14:00)
Thank you so much!

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