Episode 57: Healing Trauma & the Nervous System
A Conversation with Kelsey D’Amore, MS, LPC-S, RPT-S
This week, Liz sits down with Kelsey D’Amore, MS, LPC-S, RPT-S (Licensed Professional Counselor Supervisor and Registered Play Therapist Supervisor) to explore trauma, EMDR, Somatic Experiencing, and the nervous system—and how all of these impact the way we show up in relationships. Kelsey is also the Co-founder of Connect to Thrive, a therapy practice that provides trauma-informed, culturally competent care to our clients. You don't want to miss this one!
EPISODE NOTES:
Our brain is like a computer - when it has experiences, it upgrades it’s software.
There are clinicians who have moved through the work they are having their clients move through.
Talking about content doesn’t have to be a necessity in order to process it.
When we have painful life experiences, the brain fragments it into facts and feelings. That’s why we can know something logically, but our body doesn’t know it.
People aren’t aware that emotions can be connected to pain physically.
A big part of chronic pain is a feeling of helplessness and hopelessness.
Being a regulated parent is more important for your child than knowing exactly what to say or do in any specific moment.
The whole family system changes when each individual is able to show up authentically and regulated.
Change is not going to happen overnight. It’s little moments building on each other. Give yourself the time to go at your own pace.
Sometimes the stuff we carry isn’t even our own.
Learn more about Connect to Thrive, where Kelsey is Co-Founder, here.
Check out Kelsey’s book, Stabler’s Important Job
Read Waking the Tiger by Dr. Peter Levine
Liz Higgins: (00:03)
Hey y'all! Liz Higgins here, and welcome to the Millennial Life Podcast, where my goal is to share conversations that will inspire you and drive you toward the life and relationships you desire As your host, I'm here to share what I've learned as a licensed therapist and bring you the transformative voices of other professionals and experts that want you to cultivate relational wellness for life. Thanks for listening, and enjoy the episode!Liz Higgins: (00:32)
Hey everybody! It's Liz here, and I'm so excited for another wonderful guest episode of the Millennial Life Podcast. I am joined today by Kelsey D'Amore, who is a Licensed Professional Counselor-Supervisor, Registered Play Therapist-Supervisor... You are, like, awesome! Those could be hard to come by in our industry and it's wonderful, um, to meet people that kind of have dual supervisor licenses going on. That's great.
Kelsey D'Amore: (01:02)
It's a lot to keep up with, but worth it.
Liz Higgins: (01:05)
Right? I know that on the back end. That is so true.
Kelsey D'Amore: (01:08)
Mm-hmm.
Liz Higgins: (01:09)
So Kelsey, you are, um, in private practice in Plano, Texas at Connect to Thrive. Kelsey specializes in working with clients that have experienced trauma, chronic pain, complex PTSD, anxiety and ADHD. Thanks for joining me today!
Kelsey D'Amore: (01:27)
Yeah, thanks for having me.
Liz Higgins: (01:30)
Yes. I was really excited when I learned of you and I'm very excited to connect with you. There are a lot of things about your multiple specializations that have become really, like, sought after in terms of therapy. And I think just knowing that you have this play therapy element, too, is just amazing and fascinating because that just indicates you work with quite a range of clients. Is that right?
Kelsey D'Amore: (01:55)
Yes. So, I work with kids as young as three. And all the way up to, I think my oldest client has been, like, 72. So full lifespan, which is pretty fun because you get to see the range of different ages.
Liz Higgins: (02:10)
Yeah, I can only imagine. I mean, that is, that's vast. And definitely unique, I think, when it comes to, some therapists only stick around a certain age range or something like that. Do you find there's any challenge in seeing just a range of ages like that throughout any given day for you?
Kelsey D'Amore: (02:27)
Um, honestly, no. But I, you know... Going from working with a three-year-old, to then going to work with someone who's 50, like... It's kind of a good way to break up the day. There was a time when my caseload was only kids with trauma, and I recognized - capacity wise - I needed to shift some things. So it works really well for me and it, it's... Everyday is so different, which is what I love too.
Liz Higgins: (02:53)
Yeah, that makes, that makes sense. Tell us a little bit about the clients that you serve and you know, what you love about that work.
Kelsey D'Amore: (03:01)
Yeah, so like I said, I work with lifespan. And a lot of people end up coming to me, either after they've been in therapy for a while or they're looking for something very specialized - especially with kids. Um, I work a lot with sexual abuse. I work a lot with physical abuse and, you know, pretty intense trauma. And with adults, it's a lot of complex PTSD, relational trauma from childhood. Um, in addition to a lot of medical trauma. Um, I work a lot with women, and a lot of birth trauma that women have been through. And I really enjoy working with clients that have these kind of struggles because they want to heal, and they've tried. And so by the time they come to me, like... I have a client that, you know, was in therapy, talk therapy, for three years and knows all the things and has all the insight, but can't get her body to integrate that. And still has the same reaction. So, what's really cool for me is being able to see patterns shift. Especially, you know, when people have been struggling for so long.
Liz Higgins: (04:07)
Yeah. That, I can imagine, is huge for them. And also, probably incredibly moving and, well, meaningful for you to know that there are these modalities and methods that you can use that get them there.
Kelsey D'Amore: (04:21)
Yeah. Yeah. It's great.
Liz Higgins: (04:24)
Yeah. And Kelsey - there's a lot of letters and stuff that we're kind of spewing out, obviously, like trauma, big trauma, I'm hearing is like a thing for you. I know that you use EMDR. SEP, which is Somatic Experiencing Practitioner, right? Can you kind of break those down for us and just as we begin, make sure that listeners know a little bit about what those are?
Kelsey D'Amore: (04:48)
Yeah, so EMDR is stands for Eye Movement Desensitization Reprocessing. Um, which is a very fancy way to say we engage bilateral stimulation to process trauma or painful life events. So EMDR really focuses a little bit more cognitively on experiences that we have had.
Kelsey D'Amore: (05:11)
And the whole concept is based on the Adaptive Information Processing model, which is a very fancy way to say our brain is a computer, and when we have experiences it upgrades it's software. So, if we go through something that's difficult, our software changes and then we will react differently in the future from that. And then SEP, so I'm not an SEP yet. It's a three year program, so on the way there. But, SE - somatic experiencing - is, um, founded by Dr. Peter Levine. And it's really all about how trauma and activation gets stuck in the body, and then causes further emotional pain, physical pain, chronic pain. And it's a, it's about where our natural way to defend ourselves in fight or flight gets blocked or thwarted. And that's what causes a lot of the struggles, um, that people have. So SE is a body-based modality that helps people actually complete those responses, and then they, their body can externalize, and let it go, and release.
Kelsey D'Amore: (06:16)
So it's a little different, but they actually work well together, which is why having both is really awesome for clients.
Liz Higgins: (06:23)
I was just about to ask you that, like, like are those things that are gonna enhance each other? So they can work together? You can integrate those trainings.
Kelsey D'Amore: (06:30)
Yeah. So, you know, EMDR, I think... What I tell people is really good for like a single incident shock trauma - like a car accident, or an assault, or something very specifically that's happened. Whereas SE is, kind of, really good for the repeated patterns of things that have happened over time. Like bullying or, um, you know, relational trauma from caregivers. But, incorporating both is really cool because we can slow things down with SE if EMDR gets to be too much. But EMDR gets to the heart of the trauma and really helps people work through it quick.
Liz Higgins: (07:07)
That's, that's fantastic. And, and I have heard that SEP training, I mean it's extensive. You said three years. Is that the kind of training where like you as the practitioner going through the training are also experiencing the training yourself?
Kelsey D'Amore: (07:22)
Yes. So every training, um, is very experiential and you practice as the practitioner, and then also as the experiencer or the client. And so it's just... I always tell my clients, I'm like, 'I've done this and I know it feels wild and it's weird and it's a different way to approach,' but when things move, clients are always like, yeah, this is kind of crazy. But I'm happy to do it.
Liz Higgins: (07:48)
Yeah. Well, I think that's so critical too, to know that there are clinicians that they're moving through what they're helping their clients move through. And it's a crazy thought to have, but I suppose there really are some therapists out there that, you know, maybe don't have that. Where it's like, they're like using some model that they've actually never gone through.
Kelsey D'Amore: (08:10)
I would hope not, but I believe that probably does exist. Yeah. And I think knowing what it feels like, but also, you know, as a sidebar... Speaking to the therapist's own regulation in the room, and how we show up for our clients, is really important. So that's been really cool to see too for myself.
Liz Higgins: (08:31)
Yeah, that's awesome to hear. Well, so on this, on this thread of like the nervous system work, um, I feel like this type of work has really gained traction in our field. It's become a big part of our field. A lot of books are out there, we're all kind of digesting and stuff. But, for those who maybe aren't as familiar, what, what does this kind of work entail? Work where we are, you know, know leaning into our nervous system.
Kelsey D'Amore: (08:57)
So, the beauty of it is we get to go as slow as your nervous system needs. Somatic is all about building capacity to tolerate feelings. So, a lot of times when we are in a protective, traumatized state (or even people with just really high anxiety) it's really hard to get to the heart of stuff if we're just activated all the time. Yeah. So SE slows it down to where we're trying to connect to our body. Even just experience what it feels like to sit with sadness or sit with anxiety. And slowly build the capacity to tolerate that, so then they can actually process what has happened previously. And so it can be as simple as clients show up, and they sit down on the couch and we, you know, they update me on their week, they talk about things that have happened and we integrate body work within that. You know, a lot of... I kind of joke with new clients, like, 'I'm gonna interrupt you a lot.
Kelsey D'Amore: (09:53)
And it's not because the content you're saying is not valuable and important. But it's because your body has done something. And we want to address it, and we want to make sure that we are able to release.' So my work a lot is the times involves me leaning in and going, 'I'm gonna pause you right there. I just want you to notice that you did this with your arm.' Um, and some of my clients, you know, it's humorous and they roll their eyes, but there's a reason for it. And one of the things I love about SE is we actually don't even have to talk about content at all. Like, I have clients that come in and do not speak about anything that's happened, and we just work with what's in the nervous system. Because that's really what we need to address anyway. Talking about content doesn't have to be a necessity in order to process it.
Kelsey D'Amore: (10:37)
So a lot of people really like that. Because who wants to say that out loud? And it really minimizes like retraumatization, which can happen sometimes.
Liz Higgins: (10:47)
And is that dynamic right there, that fact that you're explaining right there, um, a piece of both EMDR and SEP? Or would you say sometimes with EMDR, clients are going back into content?
Kelsey D'Amore: (11:02)
Yeah, EMDR is, how I explain it to clients is like, EMDR is more cognitive. So EMDR attaches a meaning or a negative belief to an experience. And so, focusing on like how that shows up. It doesn't necessarily deal with sensations in the body as much... But EMDR is wonderful and definitely has a place. Whereas Somatic is purely body-based. We can introduce meaning and, absolutely, clients can talk about content if they want, but it's not a requirement. And that's what people really enjoy about it.
Liz Higgins: (11:34)
I know. What a game changer. That just throws so many modalities that have been around forever, kind of, like, upside down on their heads a little bit.
Kelsey D'Amore: (11:42)
Yes. You know, I am not a CBT hater. It has its place in this world. But, I do get a lot of clients who have done CBT or DBT for a long time. And you know, what I always tell them is it's not an insight problem. Like, most clients are able to identify what happened, and what it caused, and why they're struggling with things. It's the integration piece with the body that is the problem. You know, in EMDR they talk about when we have painful life experiences, the brain fragments it into facts and feelings. And that's why we can know something logically, but our body doesn't know it. You know, it's like if you ever hear someone say, 'Well, a part of me knows that it's not my fault, but then this other part of me really feels responsible for it.' Right?
Kelsey D'Amore: (12:29)
I view it as your brain and your nervous system are battling each other. And so SE helps to address the nervous system, and to integrate it so you can actually believe it 100%.
Liz Higgins: (12:41)
Yeah. Oh my gosh. And not to go down like another rabbit trail, but I feel like maybe that's why IFS - Internal Family Systems - has maybe gained so much traction as well. It really fits this language people can understand to those pieces you're talking about right there.
Kelsey D'Amore: (12:58)
Absolutely. IFS is such a great compliment to both of those things. And, you know, if only the training was easy to get into, then maybe that's something I would do.
Liz Higgins: (13:08)
Same here. Maybe we'll end up in there together. I, I hear rumors that it's going to be, you know, a little easier to get into at some point, but we'll see. We'll see.
Liz Higgins: (13:17)
So Kelsey, you've talked about how chronic pain is something that shows up in your therapy office quite a bit. And I think that's really interesting. I'd love to hear what that actually looks like when clients are coming to you with that, um, experience going on. And what you see.
Kelsey D'Amore: (13:33)
Yeah. I get a lot of referrals from physical therapists, OBs, or even gastro technologists, whatever, however you say it. Um, dealing with I-B-S, I-B-S is a big one I see. Um, migraines, you know... Anything with inflammation in the joints, especially. Like fibromyalgia or, um, arthritis or rheumatoid arthritis, psoriatic arthritis. Like, there's a lot of different ways that we see chronic pain manifest. And it's not to say the pain's not real, the pain is 100% real. But what I see, and you know, what Somatic Experiencing talks about is the brain and the spinal cord, the Central Nervous System, becomes hypersensitive after trauma happens. And the body holds it all.
Kelsey D'Amore: (14:17)
So, if you think about, like, a car accident and you were bracing really hard and that really never got integrated and released in your body, then bracing like this for years and years is gonna lead to some problems. Within either your back, or your neck, or you're gonna get migraines. And so, what's really cool about Somatic Experiencing and EMDR is it helps to decrease those. And I've had clients that had had migraines for years, and after doing some work around some of the stuff that happened in their childhood, they were able to start spacing those out, in between migraines. And then it got a lot less. And a lot less severe. So it's, it's really interesting how it works. And a big part, I think, too, is people aren't aware that emotions can be connected to pain physically.
Kelsey D'Amore: (15:14)
So sometimes, people are surprised when I mention like, 'Hey, do you notice like when you're distressed that your pelvic pain gets worse and that it makes it harder to function? And when you're not distressed, it's more manageable?' Like, there's typically a reason for that.
Liz Higgins: (15:31)
Oof. That's fascinating. And I imagine, for clients, hearing you make those connections, it's just this, 'Oh.' It makes so much sense. And then, when you are like the client kind of moving through that and learning these things about yourself, it's like, well, yeah, I've done this thing my whole life. Or, you know, like, I just think about those very, like... Probably just, like, so basic, but common things that maybe aren't so normal, like grinding teeth or neck tension. People just like deal with it and live with it.
Kelsey D'Amore: (16:04)
Yeah. And I think, you know, the, the sad part for me is when people like will go get major injections, or surgeries... And, you know, they don't, they don't know 'cause doctors aren't telling them, but it's like, you know, what if we tried SE first and see how that goes?
Kelsey D'Amore: (16:19)
But, you know, a big part of chronic pain is a feeling of helplessness and hopelessness. Like, it's hard every day. And so, I think SE also instills a sense of hope. Of there's something active that I can do and take control of, and I can participate and show up. And that can help alleviate symptoms.
Liz Higgins: (16:37)
That's fascinating. I'm just curious, sitting over here, like thinking as a couple's therapist, do you work with couples? Or do you see, like, how doing the somatic nervous system work can kind of really make those ripples into, like, relational healing?
Kelsey D'Amore: (16:55)
I don't do couples work. Um, I leave that to you. You can, that's, that's your area. Um, but I, I mean, I've had partners join sessions, um, as a supportive way. You know, to talk about ways to support, you know, the client or to talk about hard things, um, in a safe container.
Kelsey D'Amore: (17:15)
Um, but SE definitely can show up, you know, in the interpersonal relationships. And, you know, I I, I think it would be interesting to work with a couple together. And see what happens in each of their nervous systems. I have worked with parents in their kids' sessions, in play therapy. And having parents really notice like, what happens when their kids make a mess? What happens in your nervous system? Do you get really activated? Do you find yourself bracing and tensing? Do you find your jaw get really clenched? Like, even just helping parents become aware of, of their own responses is really powerful. So I can imagine for couples it would be incredible too.
Liz Higgins: (17:54)
Yeah. Yeah. I can only imagine. I mean, I was activated thinking of my life as a parent. I'm like, I know how I would feel if I saw the mess. And it would throw me into my spiral of anxious perfectionism.
Kelsey D'Amore: (18:05)
Totally.
Liz Higgins: (18:09)
But I love that you shifted into that. And I mean, I would love to hear just how you integrate, um, these modalities and the nervous system work, specifically with children. Like what does that usually look like?
Kelsey D'Amore: (18:21)
So it's, I mean, it's more fun in the sense that I have to be a little bit more creative in how we use it and introducing it. But, you know, kids are more willing to do things that maybe feel a little silly, you know? Like certain movements, or say things out loud. But one of the easiest ways is, and maybe I should say a little bit about play therapy first. But you know... Play, play therapy, essentially, is meeting kids at their developmental level. Like, we as humans are born knowing how to play. That's how we process. And play is a metaphor for kids that gives them distance to emotional charge - meaning like, you know, the example I always give. When I first started out, I had a kid that moved from LA, she was six. And she was really having a hard time with the transition and the big move.
Kelsey D'Amore: (19:08)
So every week when she came in, she would play out moving day. And so every single week, that was her way of processing, like, what does this move mean? And it's scary. And it's anxiety provoking. So integrating SE and EMDR into that is helping kids be very aware of their own nervous systems of when they're playing things out. It's like, 'Oh, I noticed you made this face when that happened. Like, you know, let's do that. Let's do that really over exaggerated, like err.' Or helping them slow down so their body can actually integrate the movements and release effectively. So like, kids that are stuck in a flight response may look like the hyperactivity, like they, they're restless, they can't slow down, they're all over the place. There's messes everywhere. And doing SE with them might just be like, let's pretend that we're moving through sludge. And we're a grandpa and we have to go so slow. And helping them slow down actually helps the release happen.
Kelsey D'Amore: (20:08)
So there's a lot of really cool quirky things and I just tell parents like, just roll with it, please. Just trust.
Liz Higgins: (20:15)
Is a part of it, kind of, teaching the parents how to relate to their own kids in the ways that you are with them?
Kelsey D'Amore: (20:23)
Yeah. And you know, the thing about parenting that I think is so hard nowadays is there's so much content online of people saying what it means to be a good parent and what it means to be a bad parent. And like... Parents are constantly getting flooded with new techniques and what they should be doing, what they shouldn't be doing. And I just, what I like to do is teach parents, you know, how to help their kid regulate their nervous system. And then verbiage to use, and how to show up as a parent being regulated. Because a regulated parent is way more important than knowing exactly what to say and how to discipline in the specific moment.
Kelsey D'Amore: (21:00)
Like, regulation and attunement is one of the biggest things that we can do for nervous systems for kids.
Liz Higgins: (21:06)
Yeah. So huge. Well, yes, and I hear that so much in the trainings I've done too. And it's like, being a couple's therapist, you know, it's actually brought me full circle to like parenting and just how critical that attunement stuff is at such a young age. But, you know, I bet you've experienced some of this, and I think I've seen this just time and time again over the years, whatever, like... People wanna take their children to play therapy because the child's kind of carrying symptoms of, really, the larger system. Um, but you don't just want to work with that child, right? Like, what, what's the difference? And like, what maybe happens when a parent just sends their kid to therapy and they don't wanna participate? What's the impact?
Kelsey D'Amore: (21:47)
Well, a couple different things can happen. I think one of the biggest things is, it just delays progress. It makes it a lot longer than it could be. And you know, whether the parent just is in denial, or they don't have capacity or, you know, they're overwhelmed. I think that, for a kid to be able to shift behavior, yes, there are things that they're gonna work on and do themselves. But we also have to shift environmental factors. The way that I explain it to parents is like, you know, kids... They have, we're trying to build a bridge. And they have half of the bridge, the half of the wood to build, and so do the kids. And the kids can meet in the middle, but they can't build the whole bridge all the way to the parents. And so, you know, I think it's just constant education, because otherwise, we're just... The same week is the same thing and the same problems and some behaviors may escalate.
Kelsey D'Amore: (22:45)
So I think, I think a big part is also being able to name that maybe there are things in the home that we need to shift.
Liz Higgins: (22:54)
And that's a journey! I totally can understand that it can take the adults, uh, some time to get to that space where it's like, 'Oh, this is like,, really requiring me to look at me and the challenges in my relationships, and whatever.
Kelsey D'Amore: (23:12)
Yeah. And it's, it's not fun. I mean, I understand that. But one thing our office does a lot, um, is we actually get parents connected to their own therapist. Whether it's in-house or, you know, in another therapy office. But we tend to actually see the whole family system here. So like, I'll see a child, and then someone else will see one of the parents, someone else will see one of the parents, and another person will see the sibling.
Kelsey D'Amore: (23:36)
And the change that happens when every person is getting support is incredible. Because the whole system changes when individuals are better able to show up authentically and regulated.
Liz Higgins: (23:50)
So, yeah. All these different therapy rooms. Each individual part of that family system is growing their own capacity to like, reenter those relationships. Yeah.
Liz Higgins: (24:00)
Yeah. Yeah. It seems like obvious to, to think that way, but I just think like for therapists, it is, I guess. Like when you can't just change, have one person change and expect them to go back into this system with everybody else being the way that they were.
Kelsey D'Amore: (24:16)
Right. And you know, I, I think parents can feel shame sometimes. And that's never what I want parents to feel. And parenting's so hard nowadays. There's so many new things in the world. And again, just the information that they're flooded with. But, you know, I think it's just being able to recognize your own wounds, and how that may show up. Whether it's in marriage, or couples relationship, or with your kids.
Liz Higgins: (24:42)
Yeah, absolutely. Or that sweet, critical, inner child part of you. Perfectionist stuff. Yeah. I just love that work. But you know, you were, you were talking about, like, how parental involvement can actually potentially shorten the timeline of like overall therapy, even. Do you have like... Because I feel like SE stuff, nervous system work, I mean, it's a little more like you're honing in on this deep work for the long game. And to really establish some solid healing. And not to try and get you to pin a standard timeline, but is this work typically like a little bit longer? And should people kind of wrap their heads around like, hey, like, commit to this for a while. Or sometimes is it brief?
Kelsey D'Amore: (25:31)
Typically longer. Um, and that's only because of the slowness of it. And building the capacity. But it's also, we really want to make sure the integration happens.
Kelsey D'Amore: (25:42)
And sometimes there are, you know, layers upon layers upon layers upon layers that we uncover. Once a kid is able to show up in the world, and the things they came in with are no longer causing problems, or they're better able, able to navigate those things... That's how we know it's time. But in my experience, it's been, it's been more time. It's been a, you know. I, I tell parents in the first time I meet with them, I'm like, this is an investment. Like, you know, I'm gonna ask you to show up. And like, we can discuss frequency and we can figure all those logistical things out. But at the end of the day, consistency is the most important thing with play therapy.
Liz Higgins: (26:23)
Yeah. I think that's awesome. Yeah. And I know my question was kind of like just, I threw that at you. But do you feel like it's a similar response for children doing this work and then like, adults that are coming to see you?
Kelsey D'Amore: (26:35)
Yeah. Yeah. I think adults, I mean... The unfortunate thing for us adults is that we have more baggage to sift through. So kids, kids are, are shorter in the sense of like, you know. A lot of times they have less stuff. And so they're able to get in there, and if parents are showing up and they're doing this stuff at home, like they can be in and out in a year for sure. Adult wise, I think it just depends on the nervous system. And that's the hard part.
Liz Higgins: (27:03)
Right, right. Um, yeah. And just that being said, like from your perspective, are there like, quick wins that you see sort of happen along the way? And what might be some examples of those?
Kelsey D'Amore: (27:15)
Yeah, I mean, I think they're really easy to dismiss, but you know, it's, it's as simple as, you know, if you're normally someone who is a perfectionist, who's on the go, like restless, can't slow down, like have to be productive, it's... A win is even that voice that tells you like, wait, just stop and take a breath real quick.
Kelsey D'Amore: (27:35)
That is a win. Because that is an, you know, the neuroplasticity, like a new neural pathway being created. Even though the voice is small, and we're just taking one breath. We're stopping to engage with our body and those little things add up over time. Because, you know, I joke with clients, SE is so simple. And that's why we don't do it. Because it doesn't take a long time. It doesn't take much effort. And people just kind of dismiss it going 'breathing? That's too easy.' Or grounding or whatever it is. And I get it. I get it. I was there too.
Liz Higgins: (28:13)
But it's almost like we're, we're forgetting the most simple yet most essential parts of the healing.
Kelsey D'Amore: (28:22)
Yeah. And I, you know, it's so funny because we all do it. Our prefrontal cortex, our, you know, our "thinking brain" as I talk with kids about, like, it gets in the way.
Kelsey D'Amore: (28:32)
So we try and rationalize ourselves out of feelings. But even if we just put a bandaid on it for the moment, we're not actually releasing and dealing with it. We're just going, 'okay. I made it through that tough experience. Onto the next.' And so being able to move through that and name it, is really powerful.
Liz Higgins: (28:52)
Oh, that's huge. I love that. So what would you say to somebody that is maybe considering doing this kind of work? You know, maybe they've heard of it, or they're feeling curious about it.
Kelsey D'Amore: (29:02)
Yeah. I would say that it gets to go at your own pace. I think, you know, body-based stuff can feel really overwhelming for people because obviously we as humans don't like to feel uncomfortable. That's why we'll do anything we can to avoid feelings at times. Right? Um, so know that you can go at your own pace.
Kelsey D'Amore: (29:22)
You are allowed to take your time and, you know, knowing that it's not gonna happen overnight. Like we, we don't just wake up one day going, my body is healed. It's those little micro moments like I was mentioning that build on each other. And then one day, you know, I have clients that do notice, like, 'I had this happen and normally like a year ago I would've done this and this is how I handled it. Like, that was great.' So, it's about like preparing for the rainstorm. Where we can't control the weather, but we can control the resources that we have to be most prepared for it.
Liz Higgins: (29:57)
Yeah. Well, and so many people wanna be like self-diagnosers, self-healers and all that stuff. And I think, you know, to, to an extent, right? Like, yes, get empowered and, and do your thing, but I think you're speaking to like the significance of a relationship with a therapist like you, where you are just like on this journey with the client for like a year, or two years or whatever. And can really speak to those shifts that you're seeing with them.
Kelsey D'Amore: (30:23)
Yeah. And I think it's also, you know... In SE we call it like a container, like, you know? The capacity. We wanna build the container that's there. And having a container of going to a therapy office, and someone being able to witness and hold that space for you, is so amazing. And, you know, that can be really threatening for people's systems of like, someone's gonna see me and I don't want that. That feels too exposing. Which is why it's so great that you can go as slow as you need to.
Liz Higgins: (30:56)
Oh my gosh, I'm so glad you said that. 'Cause it's like, I, I've just talked to so many people that's like, they want to feel better. They want to feel healing. They want to go to therapy. But then they, like, cancel their sessions. Or they don't keep up with it. And you're just like, 'ahhh', you know? And even as like a friend on the side or something, you wanna shift into that space of like, 'what are you thinking?'
Liz Higgins: (31:16)
Like, they're not thinking. It's, it's the threat to the nervous system. And sometimes, you can't even cognitively like explain that, you know?
Kelsey D'Amore: (31:26)
Yeah. And, you know, you bring up a, a good point of not having words to describe what's going on in the body. And, you know, I could talk for hours about pre-verbal trauma, and birth trauma... You know, things like that. But, you know, knowing that a lot of times our body's not gonna have words for what happened. Especially if it was before we could talk. Because we cognitively weren't able to assign words to that. But that's why, you know, if we try and intellectualize every feeling that comes up, we're doing our nervous system a disservice. Versus just... The phrase that SE uses that most of my clients kind of, you know, roll their eyes and laugh at now is like, let's get curious about it.
Kelsey D'Amore: (32:09)
We don't judge it, we don't evaluate it. We don't immediately go into solution focus. We just get curious. And we wanna be with it and see what happens.
Liz Higgins: (32:19)
I love that. Yeah. I talk with clients a lot about curiosity without judgment.
Kelsey D'Amore: (32:23)
Exactly. Yeah. What's that TikTok trend now? We listen and we don't judge, you know?
Liz Higgins: (32:29)
There we go. You're like, yes, I'm so glad this is on TikTok where people are gonna actually listen to it. But am I, am I getting this right? That, like with pre-verbal trauma, I mean obviously people don't remember, um, that kind of stuff. But essentially, like, the nervous system does. It, it holds it, it keeps it.
Kelsey D'Amore: (32:50)
Yeah. And they're, they've done a lot of research about, you know, people that were born with umbilical cords wrapped around their neck. And how, when they are doing the SE work, they will have a lot of activation in their throat. And there will be times they feel like they're gagging, and choking, when they've never had an experience like that that they can remember.
Liz Higgins: (33:09)
Wow.
Kelsey D'Amore: (33:10)
And you know, especially as babies, like our nervous system starts working at seven weeks gestation. And inside, fetuses will show a startle response. Like a 'woo, what was that?' And so, if that's happening at seven weeks, you know, we can only imagine all the things that can happen prior to them being able to talk. Right?
Liz Higgins: (33:37)
Wow. That is huge. I'm like so curious to know so much about that stuff, but I'm not gonna make you do it right now.
Kelsey D'Amore: (33:44)
I mean, I'm happy to go into it. I love it. It's very fascinating to me.
Liz Higgins: (33:47)
It does sound fascinating. Yeah. I mean, like, are there actually... Would that be, like, stuff that Peter Levine has written on and researched? Are there specific people that have gone more into that sector of, like, the pre-verbal trauma and really understanding that?
Kelsey D'Amore: (34:02)
Yeah, Peter. Peter has done some really great stuff about it.
Kelsey D'Amore: (34:05)
And, you know, there's a lot of work that he's done with intergenerational trauma. So even from pre-verbal going to stuff that we have that's not even our own. Um, one of the things I tell clients all the time of like, you know, he worked with, um, descendants of people that survived Auschwitz. So, people that, you know, grew up here, they were born in the US. They grew up here. They did not have that kind of trauma. But in adulthood, they were showing the same levels of PTSD as their ancestors that survived Auschwitz. And they also reported, in times of distress, they could smell burning flesh. And so thinking about how things get coated in our system from our grandparents. Because we are an egg within our mom's egg within our grandma. So there's a lot that happens within that too, of sometimes the stuff we carry isn't even our own.
Liz Higgins: (35:01)
Mm-hmm. That stuff is so fascinating. Um, well... And to people listening that this is just totally new, new information, I'm sure it can sound like kind of wild. But like, there really is research, there's evidence around this stuff. Are there books you would recommend for people if they're kind of curious about understanding?
Kelsey D'Amore: (35:20)
Yeah, sure. Yeah. Dr. Peter Levine, he's got a couple different books. The one I always recommend to people is called Waking the Tiger. And that's basically where he just talks about the foundation of SE, and how it came to be. And his observations. And you know... He talks about a couple different cases that he had, but there's a lot of really great YouTube videos that he has online where you can observe somatic sessions. Where he gets interviewed, and just talks about the nervous system and body. And I think that helps a lot of times too, to just even comprehend, like, all the things that happen in our nervous system within the span of 30 seconds of something traumatic happening.
Kelsey D'Amore: (35:59)
It's, it's wild how much occurs.
Liz Higgins: (36:03)
That is wild. Well, and I just hear that you have sat with quite the range of different experiences that could happen from people. I mean, so many different presenting situations and experiences. Like, is there any one that sort of sticks out to you as like, 'wow, this was like really just meaningful to kind of like, move through with somebody' or, you know? Yeah.
Kelsey D'Amore: (36:29)
I think what comes to my mind specifically recently is, you know, a client working on bullying. And being able to somatically work through what he would've wanted to do versus what he had to do. Which was go into freeze. And how that alleviated so much tension, and so much of a fight response. 'Cause the fight response was trapped. It never got to come out. He had to go into freeze, you know?
Kelsey D'Amore: (36:56)
And so being able to witness that is just, it's so cool. And it's so awesome to be able to see clients feel relief after carrying something for so long.
Liz Higgins: (37:07)
Yeah. Well, and it goes without saying I guess, but like, I'm still gonna ask. Do you see people like relieved from chronic pain? And like, those symptoms that they come in with?
Kelsey D'Amore: (37:18)
Yeah, it definitely, it gets better. You know, I think it's one of those things where it's management, but we can lessen the severity. We can lessen the frequency, you know? We can make it to where life isn't so helpless day to day.
Liz Higgins: (37:34)
Yeah. And I just imagine that boosts the quality of life so much for people.
Kelsey D'Amore: (37:39)
Yeah. Because, you know, then they can actually be embodied. One thing I haven't mentioned, but like, with chronic pain, people don't wanna be in their body.
Kelsey D'Amore: (37:47)
It's too painful, it hurts. Um, and so then there becomes a really big disconnect with 'my body's betrayed me' and 'I don't like my body for doing that.'.
Liz Higgins: (37:59)
Right, right. Oof. Yeah. I'm, it's just so fascinating for me. I'm over here like, oh my gosh! Like, first of all, I could just tell you, you know so much about this and it's, it's, your work is immersed in this with clients, which is so wonderful. But I, just... Knowing what I've learned about SE and the work that you're doing, it's like, boy, I just wish everybody could get a slice of that! Because like, the impact that would have on our world, you know?
Kelsey D'Amore: (38:24)
Yes. Yes. And that's, that's the hope. I mean, I, I'm sure that's why you do what we do too, right? Like the impact of, we wanna make life better for people, and make the world kinder, and help us all be embodied, and show up and be authentic and...
Kelsey D'Amore: (38:41)
And intergenerational stuff that comes up.
Liz Higgins: (38:45)
Yeah. Well, and if I can ask, what, what impact do you feel like doing this work has made for you? Just on your own life?
Kelsey D'Amore: (38:53)
I mean, so, you know, even just talking about like, parents doing their own work. I think for me it's, it's forced me to do my own work in the best way. There's a lot that, you know, I didn't realize that I was holding somatically. Where I was pretty shocked by how I responded to certain things in some se sessions I had to do for my training. So it's helped me slow down, you know, I'm... When I talk about perfectionist people who can't slow down, that was me in my previous life.
Liz Higgins: (39:23)
Oh, I thought you were just calling me out.
Kelsey D'Amore: (39:24)
No, no, no, no. I was just referencing myself casually, you know. Um, yeah, recovering perfectionist.
Kelsey D'Amore: (39:30)
Like I, it's helped me slow down and like, helped me be able to be more present. Um, instead of just kind of being a chicken with my head cut off, like all over the place all the time, so. I'm just so grateful for that too.
Liz Higgins: (39:44)
And that's really cool to hear, and I admire that about you because, just knowing that you like, manage this practice and you have, you know, built up this really great thing y'all are doing over there. Um, I know that's just ripe with, um, opportunities for you to go right back into the chicken with your head cutoff thing. That's a daily practice, right? You know?
Kelsey D'Amore: (40:06)
Absolutely. And, you know, I, within the perfectionism, which is a lot of things that, a lot of a thing that a lot of people struggle with, like, you know. Healing isn't perfect either.
Kelsey D'Amore: (40:17)
Like, we're gonna have days where it's just hard to regulate. It's just hard to be able to shake it off. And that's okay. Like, we can just say it's a shit day. Excuse my language, but.... And we can roll with that and know that the next day we'll have more access to resources, and we can tackle it differently. So it's trying to be right here, right now in this moment. And that's kind of a, a catchphrase in SE is like ""right here, right now. We are not living in the anxiety perfectionism of the future, and we are not living in the depressive, you know, trauma of the past. We're right here.
Liz Higgins: (40:56)
I love that. If you don't have a t-shirt, you should probably get one of those.
Kelsey D'Amore: (41:00)
Right? I can get some merch going.
Liz Higgins: (41:02)
Totally. So, I wanted to mention this piece. You had mentioned to me that you wrote a book a couple of years ago. Can you tell us about that?
Kelsey D'Amore: (41:09)
Ah... So, um, one thing I haven't mentioned is I have therapy dogs that I use. Um, I've got two right now. Yeah. I have a Weenie dog named Noodle and a Golden Doodle named Bowser.
Liz Higgins: (41:20)
Are they, are they like with you most of the time?
Kelsey D'Amore: (41:23)
They're with me a good amount of the time. I would say they come a couple times a week. Noodle, if anyone has ever had a Weenie dog, then they know the sass level that comes up with that. And so some days she is like, she tells me her capacity of like, I'm gonna poop on the rug and I don't wanna go in today. Like, cool. You've communicated that. Um, but I had a therapy dog, um, named Stabler (from Law and Order SVU, if you've ever seen that.)
Liz Higgins: (41:49)
Oh, nice!
Kelsey D'Amore: (41:52)
And he was my soul dog. Like he... We joked in my office, he was the Director of First Impressions because he basically lived up here. And he would greet everyone's clients in the lobby, you know. He was a very gentle giant. He was so sweet. And he ended up, unfortunately, passing away the week of the winter storm in 2021. He was only three and a half. And it was a very big shock. Not only to me, but every single one of the clients that came to our practice. So imagine the book, um, it's called Stabler's Important Job. And it's just about, you know, grief and introducing grief and loss to kids. And how you can talk to them about it, you know, not just in a pet sense, but just in a grief sense in general. Even with grandparents, or if a kid has lost someone.
Kelsey D'Amore: (42:40)
So it was part of my grief process and it was very helpful.
Liz Higgins: (42:43)
That's amazing. Well, and I'm just so happy to know about it. We'll definitely put a link to your book in our show notes and offer that for people to access. But, Kelsey, this has been such a fun conversation with you today. Thanks for doing this!
Kelsey D'Amore: (42:56)
Thanks for having me!
Liz Higgins: (42:58)
As we wrap it up today, is there, like, anything that you feel is kind of a tidbit you would like to leave listeners with? Or, any key point that's really made an impact for you in all this?
Kelsey D'Amore: (43:10)
I think, um, I've got like two things. The number one thing is, you know, not judging your body for doing things it needed to do to survive at the time. And having compassion for yourself, you know? Your younger self, your inner child, whoever it may be. That you did what you needed to, and we just have to show your body.
Kelsey D'Amore: (43:31)
It doesn't have to do that anymore. And then the second piece I would leave is like, you know... Slowing down and right here, right now is like... Using those things yourself of, I have sticky notes all over my house, literally that say slow down. And so when I'm leaving out the door in the morning, I'm able to see it. I'm able to take a deep breath, and pause, and do what I need to do slowly. And not in a rush. So it's just, I would encourage people, like find ways that you can slow down and reconnect.
Liz Higgins: (44:03)
Hmm. I love that. I just pictured in my head, the exact spaces I'm gonna go put that post-it today.
Kelsey D'Amore: (44:11)
They're very helpful.
Liz Higgins: (44:13)
And it seems so basic too, but a post-it note to remind you of those essential things that you don't wanna forget.
Kelsey D'Amore: (44:19)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And knowing the slowdown is counterintuitive. Your body is not gonna wanna do it because it's used to going fast on the gas pedal. So, you know, trusting that too.Liz Higgins: (44:33)
Yep. That's the whole point, my friends. Love it. Thank you so much, Kelsey. I look forward to chatting with you more about all these things you're so, uh, versed in. Thanks for sharing all the knowledge on us.
Kelsey D'Amore: (44:44)
Yeah, of course!
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