Episode 58: Growing Together: Couples & Family Transitions
A Conversation with Katie Hevia, LMFT Associate, LPC Associate
Katie is supervised by Rachel Falbo, PhD, LMFT-S, LPC-S & Liz Higgins, LMFT-S
In this episode of The Millennial Life Podcast, Liz sits down with Katie Hevia, LMFT Associate, LPC Associate (Supervised by Rachel Falbo, PhD, LMFT-S, LPC-S & Liz Higgins, LMFT-S) to explore how couples can navigate major life transitions while maintaining a strong and connected relationship. They dive into the complexities of family of origin dynamics, in-law relationships, and the challenges that arise as partners build a life together. From setting boundaries to staying aligned as a team, this conversation offers practical insights and guidance for couples striving to protect their bond while honoring their extended families.
EPISODE NOTES:
There is some grief in losing the extended family you always thought you would be a part of.
Positivity and a lack of pain have become our gold standard, but it’s really normal to not have that experience.
We almost put unfair expectations on the family that we grow into that things should be as perfect as possible.
Another form of grief that comes with growing your family is time with your immediate family. Time, traditions, and old expectations can change.
A lot of the “expectation versus reality” issues that come up have to do with navigating new family rules, new family roles, and new family values.
Joining a new family is almost like learning a new language.
Boundary setting is communicating as a unit what you are and are not okay with for your relationship, for your inner family.
The intention behind boundary setting is important for both partners to align on.
We have to remember that our person is not our enemy.
Approach challenging conversations with compassion and curiosity.
Learn more about working with Katie here!
Liz Higgins: (00:03)
Hey y'all! Liz Higgins here, and welcome to the Millennial Life Podcast, where my goal is to share conversations that will inspire you and drive you toward the life and relationships you desire As your host, I'm here to share what I've learned as a licensed therapist and bring you the transformative voices of other professionals and experts that want you to cultivate relational wellness for life. Thanks for listening, and enjoy the episode!
Liz Higgins: (00:32)
Hello, everybody! Happy Friday - at least at the time of this recording. It is a beautiful Friday afternoon in Dallas. I'm very excited today 'cause I'm joined with a colleague - and a lovely human - Katie Hevia. Thank you for being here! Tell us a little bit about you for those that are listening and may not know who you are just yet.
Katie Hevia: (00:56)
Sure! Thanks for having me, Liz. I'm excited to be here. So, I am a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist Associate, and also duly licensed as a Licensed Professional Counselor Associate. So that's a mouthful. But I am, uh, one of the therapists, one of the therapists at MLC. And I work with a lot of couples, and I also work with a lot of adult individuals. But I find myself working with a lot of couples who are in the early stages of their relationship... Whether that be dating, committed, long-term but not necessarily interested in getting married, engaged, or recently married. And recently married can be anything from total newlyweds to married for the past five years. So I love working with that population. I think it's... There's a lot of upside to working with people who are very early in their relationship. 'Cause you can kind of lay the foundation for a really solid start. For, hopefully, a really long relationship together. And in that population, there's a topic that comes up a lot that I'm really excited to talk to you about today, which is navigating new family dynamics. And what I mean by that is figuring out how to deal with in-laws. So as you can imagine, that affects a lot of people.
Liz Higgins: (02:12)
Dun dun dun....
Liz Higgins: (02:15)
I'm just kidding. We love in-laws here. We do. Um, but yeah. Dynamics for sure. Well, and we talked before this about curveball questions. And I was just curious to ask when you were introducing yourself, like did you always know that you were interested in working with this population of clients? And you know, some of these like preemptive times in their life, like premarital and kind of preparing for these life transitions down the road?
Katie Hevia: (02:42)
Yeah. I, I knew I wanted to work with couples. I didn't realize how much I would love working with couples at this stage in the game. I think it's really heartwarming to see couples who are being really proactive about their relationship and just getting into therapy as soon as they can. So that's something that I've really loved about it.
Liz Higgins: (03:03)
Yeah, I think that's awesome. We talked a little bit about that in another podcast episode with our whole team. Just how, really, generationally too, I think a lot of our clients are breaking that barrier of not waiting until everything's hitting the fan to come into therapy. And so that's really cool. You're, you're seeing some, some really neat change and transformation happen before things get really tough. They can build on the strengths. Absolutely. Well, yes, the topic of in-laws. I think this is such a relevant one and maybe we can just start that out with exploring, like, are there any surprises about navigating new family dynamics once people are married or in a committed partnership that catch people off guard?
Katie Hevia: (03:50)
Yeah, so I love that question because I do see a couple of surprises that come up often, with, you know, recently married or just recently committed partners that I don't think a lot of people expect. So one of them is that, and I should say this is a general surprise, it doesn't necessarily happen to everyone, but it's something that I've seen quite often with couples in therapy is that they find themselves almost mourning the loss of this extended family that they expected. So a lot of people, they think a lot about what they imagine their family is gonna be when they get married one day. Maybe as early as when their kids, they're thinking about, you know, what dynamics they're expecting with their in-laws, what they're hoping their relationship will be like with them. And that can come from what they see within their own family that they really love and want to replicate at some point in their lives. Or, stuff within their own family that they don't love and they definitely want to avoid having happened. So, I think what can catch people off guard is that sometimes, even if they meet their in-laws before they get married or before they're fully committed and they have an idea of who they are, sometimes that expectation versus reality can kind of catch them off guard once they start to spend more time with them and become more integrated into that family. So there really is some grief in losing that idea of what they thought that their family might look like.
Liz Higgins: (05:19)
Yeah. And I'm just glad you started with all that because we could probably dive into a lot of meaningful but more, like, surface level pieces around in-laws and, and kind of the transition... But, really, you're talking about that deeper level stuff that catches people by surprise a little bit. And I don't know, I just wonder sometimes where the, the myth or that expectation came from that like, positivity slash lack of pain means something is good and is right when, really, what you're describing. I, as we kind of know as therapists who study developmental, you know, aspects of relationships, we know that it's normal. It's really normal to feel what you're describing there, I think. Right?
Katie Hevia: (06:09)
Yeah, absolutely. And when you said that about positivity and lack of pain kind of being this expectation or gold standard, I mean... Think about how it is within your own family. Who is in a family where there is just positivity all the time? And I think we almost put unfair expectations on the family that we grow into, marry into, commit into... That things should look great, you know? Should be as perfect as possible. And that's just never how families are. So that's a tough one for people that can really catch them off guard. And I, I would also like to add to that. So another surprise that we see is, um, this kind of like... And again, it's, it's another form of grief and it's grieving the loss of time with your own family. So, we don't always think about it this way, but when you grow your family, when you add to your family and you are now part of this whole new extended family, you're also losing, um, some time, traditions, and just things that you love to do with your own family.
Katie Hevia: (07:14)
'Cause naturally we only have so much time, you have to balance it. So, that can feel like a shock. I I find that a lot of couples just at the beginning of figuring out navigating holidays or other big traditions, there's just this real, uh, pain and sense of grief. And realizing that you're gonna have to share now, right? Like, it's not gonna be all about your family and the things that you love to do with them, but now you need to share that with your partner. So that's a, that's a huge one. And couples really, I don't, I don't think a lot of people know how to even talk about that in advance or know to expect it.
Liz Higgins: (07:50)
Well, yeah. And I was just wondering, I'm wanting to ask you, do you hear couples, like in premarital therapy, talking about those kinds of things? Because it really is like one thing to kind of talk all that out and then it's this whole other thing to live through it and experience it. And really feel that separation of 'I'm losing this time' and, you know, that felt sense of loss or whatever. But do you hear them kind of identify that as something they wanna talk about and try to understand more?
Katie Hevia: (08:22)
Yes. Well, premarital couples are kind of, uh, a special group because they are being very proactive. In fact, they're not necessarily coming into therapy with a presenting concern or problem. And so it's all about trying to plan for the unexpected. So they really get a head start on a lot of those conversations. Where I find couples that are sort of, like, navigating it as it happens or after it's happening are just couples who are in therapy in general, and also, I mean couples who aren't in therapy. I see this with my friends, I see this, you know, I, I've experienced this myself that you, uh, you might not know to plan for it. And then how can you sort of be prepared for that as it comes?
Liz Higgins: (09:02)
Yeah, I was just thinking about myself as you were talking and it's like, you know, like I'm a therapist, I try to be pretty self-aware about the areas where I'm gonna struggle and stuff, but I do have like this memory and my body of like feeling nervousness just about like, what, what's it gonna be like, like our lives, you know? Especially when kids came along, it was like, you know, the the time really is gonna be split and I'm nervous about how much I'm gonna lose because my family was really close knit and stuff like that. But, but that was just purely based on fears and anxieties more than them being like difficult people. Like it wasn't like that. You know what I mean? So much can color where that's coming from for people, I'm sure.
Katie Hevia: (09:46)
And I think that's really important to bring up because so much about this is not about them, you know? I think that in this conversation the cliche is sort of like, oh, the, the big bad in-laws and that just, that can't always be the case or else we would all be having terrible parents. I mean, just statistically it doesn't make sense that all in-laws can be bad. Um, but it really is, it's about our expectations. It's about us navigating our own, you know, loss as we are also gaining this new family. So I think keeping that in mind throughout all of this, and I'm gonna bring that up a lot today... Just keeping in mind it's about, it's you, you know, it's your stuff to navigate. Yes. They might have their thing, there might be some quirks, but really so much of this is, is stuff that can be planned for, navigated together, and it's all about how the couple does this together.
Liz Higgins: (10:37)
Yeah. Which really in what you just said, I hear a lot of empowerment and hope, too. Because it's not like a no, you're the problem. It's like no, you actually kind of can hold the reins on how you feel through all of this and the adjustments.
Katie Hevia: (10:52)
Yes, absolutely.
Liz Higgins: (10:52)
So, so you had mentioned that, you know, couples are kind of like, might mourn that those family dynamics are different than expected. Couples can mourn the family dynamics that they expected but didn't get. Um, how can couples identify and grieve those losses together? Instead of feeling like it's something that's maybe pulling them apart or feeling some unspoken disappointments or resentments?
Katie Hevia: (11:17)
Yeah. And that's a nice question following up what we were just talking about because, like you said, Liz, like you were kind of... You started to realize that you had some feelings around balancing your parents' time with your in-laws' when you were having kids. And it's something that you had to really think through, and process, and become aware of. So I think for a lot of people, the first step here is really having that introspection and just acknowledging, okay, this is what's happening. This is, this is me starting to feel a type of way about this. Um, and what happens more often than not is that one partner will feel this loss and disappointment that we're talking about, but it might initially just manifest as irritation about their partner's family. It becomes about them instead of about me. And that makes it really difficult for the other partner to know how to support, and empathize, and show up for their partner because that kind of automatically puts them on the defense if they feel like their partner is saying, I just don't like them.
Katie Hevia: (12:19)
You know, I just don't like how they are about this. 'Cause that sort of puts that partner in the position of, well, "I don't know how to do and what to do about that because they are who they are and they're my family." So again, first and foremost, it's really having that introspection and figuring out how to articulate that to your partner, that it's about you and not about them. And that could be something as simple as, you know, "I really wish I was closer to your mom. I wish your mom and I had a better relationship." You know, whatever it is. And then that's something that you can discuss and decide, okay, is this attainable if we just have a conversation with them? If we change the way that we interact with them? Or are we gonna have to adjust our expectations a little bit and figure out how to navigate this in a way that makes sense for our relationship and our family union.
Liz Higgins: (13:07)
Mm-hmm. You know, I'm thinking ,too, about how what you sort of role played there that people could say to their partner to make it less of a situation where the defenses and activation kind of gets riled up. But, I do think to an extent, like for many people out there, like that's a skill to communicate in that way. And I'm wondering like, is that something you find yourself helping couples learn how to do in therapy? Kind of like how to identify, like... Can you say a little bit about that? 'Cause it's almost like the relationship 101 stuff. I mean, I guess what I'm searching for here is like, it's true, right? Like not everybody just knows how to do that. We really have to kind of learn.
Katie Hevia: (13:48)
Yeah. And I'm, I'm glad you grounded us in that reality because what I just said was so much easier said than done. And the truth is, is that sure, that's not how those conversations go, go a lot of times. One couple, usually one person usually is kind of stuck in their feelings and not knowing how to express it. And the other one is receiving, uh, some version of that that's not necessarily the root of how that person feels, but it might be something that comes off as kind of hurtful or judgmental when it's not really meant to be. So yes, I would say when there are those difficulties and somebody, a partner, couple might find themselves in a cycle, uh, that's where therapy can definitely help.
Liz Higgins: (14:31)
I just love that. That's why we became therapists, right? So we could get all this right for ourselves.
Katie Hevia: (14:37)
Yeah.
Liz Higgins: (14:38)
We're still trying and that's only 10% true. So yeah. I mean okay, so say that the conversation doesn't go so well and they need a little help in therapy. What might be some of those common dynamics that couples want your help with when it comes to navigating things with the in-laws?
Katie Hevia: (14:57)
Yeah, so in addition to just having those conversations like we were saying before, um, I think a lot of those sort of expectations versus reality issues are often related to navigating new family rules, new family roles and new family values. And this is, I'm getting very, uh, family therapist systemic on us right now, but, um... These are things that exist with every family, right? And joining a new family is almost like learning a new language. Like you are starting from scratch. Even if you and your partner look like you are from the same background culturally, you assume you're sort of similar on paper... There are so many nuances to how families interact with each other. Whether it be in how they talk to each other, how they show love for each other. And also just what are those, those family rules that they might all follow? And I wanna be clear about family rules because when I say that, I kind of picture like one of those "beach house rules" sign. Like don't go into the pool, don't bring sand into the house. Something very clear cut. But that is not what I'm talking about. Um, these are more often than not -
Liz Higgins: (16:10)
Becasue rarely are they ever actually written anywhere.
Katie Hevia: (16:13)
Yes. They're not written. And that makes it so much harder for that new person to navigate that family, because these rules are unspoken. They are learned over generations. And they're often unconscious. And so, when you're getting into a new family, these rules might be anything from we don't talk about emotions to we don't share family secrets outside of this unit, or even with each other. Or it could be something as innocuous as dad cuts the Turkey on Thanksgiving and mom makes the pie and that's how it is every year. We're not changing it. So ...
Liz Higgins: (16:46)
Right.
Katie Hevia: (16:47)
They can be silly, simple, not a big deal. But they can be really big things that you don't necessarily know how to plan for or even, um, identify before you're really deep in the relationship and trying to figure out, 'Okay, why am I not closer with this family than I expected to be at this point?'
Liz Higgins: (17:05)
Oof. Yeah. So there it is rubbing up against those expectations that, that people felt walking into it, you know? And I don't know, I just am kinda marinating on what you said about how families... Integrating into families is like learning a new language. I mean, like it really is. It is. Um, and, and not only are you learning and establishing the relationship into that new unit, you're also doing that with your partner, which is huge in and of itself. So there's actually, you know, I suppose using a very basic, diadic relationship structure in my head to keep it simple... At minimum three, three different areas where you're learning these new roles, and rules, and the languages essentially. And then so many families that come from, um, you know, re remarried parents and things of that nature where it's an even wider web. That's a lot.
Katie Hevia: (18:02)
A lot. Yeah. That is a lot. And I really liked what you said about like trying to establish your own rules with your partner at the same time. 'Cause we forget that that is complex in itself in the early years of a relationship. And so doing that while also sort of pulling from and uh, you know, deciding what you don't want about your extended family dynamics can be really challenging.
Liz Higgins: (18:30)
Yeah. Well, and I just think about our specialty area of like couple relationships, and attachment theory, and stuff... And how it's like we're moving through these very real challenging experiences in life, and we're needing to go like feel safe and secure with our person, with our secure base. And if we've got that, you know, they're not always seeing our best self. They're getting all the parts of us that want to kind of run and escape the discomfort of all this stuff. Or get really big and, you know, extroverted in all this stuff. And that's just a lot. And I, I imagine that's where you see some couples coming in to see you. They've kind of hit this wall where there's just too much of this reactivity going on around these very normal, but like, challenging, stressful dynamics.
Katie Hevia: (19:21)
Yeah. Liz, we could have an entirely separate podcast about just how attachment plays a role in these conversations. I feel like what we're talking about today is sort of looking at what happens at a high level. And then attachment is really this like deep root beneath all of this. So, I'm glad you brought that up and maybe we'll do another podcast where we just talk about that.
Liz Higgins: (19:43)
Pause that. Episode number two, I already feel it coming! But in all seriousness, it's a very relevant subject to explore because, you know, and as I hear it coming from you, there's some way deeper themes playing out in all this. And that those are worth exploring too. So, but yeah, like, so every person brings this invisible thread of loyalty to their family of origin. How do you see those loyalties show up in a couple's relationship? Especially when partners maybe have different ideas about what it means to honor their own family, while protecting their relationship?
Katie Hevia: (20:21)
Yeah, so family loyalty plays a huge role in all of this. And I think it's often... It starts off subconscious, and then it can potentially turn into what the fight almost becomes about. So even among the best communicators, couples can get stuck in this feeling of, 'Okay, if I agree with my partner about X, Y, and z about my family, that's basically me betraying my family.' So there's this initial hurdle to get over of being able to pinpoint things, or point out things that might not be so great about your family, or maybe you would do differently. It initially feels like you are completely betraying them. And this is understandable. Because a lot of people grow up with this sort of family first mentality and there's just sort of this dynamic of we're not gonna question or challenge the way that we are.
Katie Hevia: (21:15)
So it feels like this betrayal to even entertain the idea of viewing your family - again, your rules, your roles, your values, all of that stuff - in a different way. So what happens when that comes up for people is that when they have these conversations that partner who the conversations about their family, they might feel defensive. They might feel like shutting down. And so, it's so important for that partner who is bringing this to them to keep it about themself. And not necessarily about their partner's family. So it's, 'Hey, I'm having a hard time with this.' Not, 'I really just don't like the way your dad does X, Y, and Z.' Because the only reaction that that person can have to that, especially if they're subconsciously worried about that loyalty is, 'Well, he's always been like that and he'll never change. And also kind of like, what do you want me to do about it?'
Liz Higgins: (22:10)
Yeah. And that's a fascinating thing you're honing in on because... Using an extreme example of maybe a parent that is, like, unhealthy or very difficult or you know, like narcissistic or something like that, it can seem confusing for a partner to maybe experience their partner. That the child of that, that person... Like, kind of protecting them or like even sustaining some sort of loyalty. You know, I'm just thinking of that as kind of a random example. There's just so many ways these dynamics can show up and, and really put the defenses up. But again, I hear you saying like, there's a way to navigate like each and every one of these things. And it sounds like a lot of it starts with communicating in a way that helps your partner stay a little more softened to just talking about it.
Katie Hevia: (23:05)
Yeah. And communicating in, in a way that they can do something about it. Because what you're really asking for in that situation is usually just to be heard. And feel like your partner sees what you're going through and cares about what you're going through. So if you make it about you, you're more likely to get that response. If you make it about them, then you're more likely to get some defensiveness, which is really not gonna make you feel super cared for. And your, your partner's not feeling great about it either.
Liz Higgins: (23:34)
Mm-hmm. That's so true. Mm-hmm. How do you feel like some of these challenges can end up impacting a couple's relationship?
Katie Hevia: (23:43)
Yeah. So, I find that it can end up becoming a pretty serious issue with some couples. Sometimes it's just sort of, you know, these kind of like annoying conversations. They don't really go anywhere, but it doesn't become this big festering problem. But for some couples, they can find themselves sort of stuck in this never-ending conflict, um, about their grievances with their in-laws. And the place where they often find themselves getting stuck is one has the stance of, you never stand up for me and you care about your family more than you care about me. That's sort of the, the underlying meaning they make of being stuck in this. And then the other partner might be stuck in a stance of, there's nothing I can do to fix this, and you're asking me to give up my family. Which you can see the underlying meaning of both of those are just impossible. That is just a terrible place for either of them to be in. And so it can feel like this huge deal that if one finds, you know, something irritating about their in-laws and they bring it up, the other doesn't really receive it. And the other feels like them bringing it up is sort of this loyalty test. Or being asked to choose their partner over their family. Neither of them is really in a great position in that case. So I think in the worst of these conflicts, that's what it ends up becoming about.
Liz Higgins: (25:04)
Well, and I think play that out even more. That's when you find couples really sitting in that murky space of 'we're just not meant to be together.' And really chalk it up to the difficulty of those dynamics. And I don't know if you're gonna take us there, but I'm definitely interested to hear what you say about that. Like, how can a couple go from being in that sort of place to a better place?
Katie Hevia: (25:31)
Yeah. I mean the, the "Are we really meant to be to together?" place is a really tough place. And I would say if they're feeling that way about this situation with their in-laws, they're probably having a similar cycle, a similar conflict going on with a lot of other things in their relationship. And that's not to say they have a bad relationship, or they're dysfunctional, or there's anything like that going on. But clearly they're stuck in a place where these conversations can't be had in a way for either of them to feel like they're hearing each other. And it just feels like an endless pit against each other.
Liz Higgins: (26:06)
Wow. You just did what I wasn't even thinking you would do, but I'm like, it's the truth. It's like you're identifying that's, that's just, that's a stuck cycle. Yeah. And like that's kind of what a therapist (like you!) knows to work with. So it again reminds me there's actually a lot of hope for people that are sitting in that kind of space, you know? Yeah. Um, yeah. 'Cause those, those cycles can become like little twisters, you know? And then you just feel so caught up in it, you don't know how you're ever gonna get out. But a lot of possibility exists. Right?
Katie Hevia: (26:40)
Absolutely.
Liz Higgins: (26:43)
So I know setting boundaries with family can also trigger deep feelings of betrayal. Like, especially if a lot of loyalty was a core value growing up. And I thought about when you were talking about loyalties, some of that's unspoken. Some of it's literally spoken, you know? And I think culture can play such a huge role, too, for people's varying experiences around that concept of family loyalty. It's just so huge. But how do you guide couples to navigate the boundary setting in a way that maybe honors their partnership without severing meaningful family ties?
Katie Hevia: (27:19)
Yeah. So boundary setting is really important. I would say there's sort of a "watch out" with boundary setting related to what we were just talking about with being in that 'stuck place'. So, first I'll say boundary setting can be a great thing, right? It's, it's coming together, communicating about what you are and are not okay with as a unit and for your relationship, for your inner family. And, uh, doing this in a way that is respectful to each of your feelings about your broader family, and also to your broader family, is great (and really important.) So it can be such a great thing. What I will say, is that when you are already in that stuck place in your relationship where you really find yourself not being able to navigate these conversations in a way that leads to a sense of resolution and repair, then boundary setting can be a really difficult thing to navigate.
Katie Hevia: (28:15)
So I think that the intention behind boundary setting is really important for both partners to align on beforehand. And what I mean by that is that they both need to be in a place where they're really trusting of knowing what each other's intentions are when setting those boundaries. And that those intentions are truly about setting boundaries in the best interest of their relationship, rather than as a way to kind of, like, win this argument, or make a statement to their in-laws, or teach a lesson, or any of those kind of scary things. And that it might feel like when you two are in a place where you feel like you can't really get to a resolution about this. So again, if you're, if you're stuck in that place with regards to navigating these dynamics where one partner feels like the other one's never standing up for them, and one feels like they're being put through a loyalty test, boundary setting might end up feeling kind of like a scorecard rather than a healthy solution.
Liz Higgins: (29:14)
Ooh.
Katie Hevia: (29:14)
Yeah. Just a watch out.
Liz Higgins: (29:16)
Well I definitely encourage... I definitely encourage people listening to like, take that in and think about it. 'Cause I don't know, I'm assuming 99.9% of the people listening right now are just as human as me and you. And we get this wrong sometimes. Because it's like, all those strategies you described that like needing to be right, getting defensive, having to like be the one that comes out winning the interaction or whatever. They're all just protective measures we take, you know? When we're feeling some deeper sense of anxiety, or fear or, or a threat, an external threat coming in. And we have to remember like our, our person is not our enemy. We're standing on the same side. And I don't know, sometimes the visualization with that helps me, but ooh, that sticks out that piece of a scorecard. Because you work with a lot of like successful, you know, high achieving clients, right? And they still get stuck in these kinds of dynamics, too. In fact, I wonder what... People are so good at in their life with their jobs and stuff, maybe even fuels that part of them that just knows how to come out big front and center and like win the thing. Even when it's with their partner.
Katie Hevia: (30:34)
Yeah. Well that's a really tough place to be in, where you feel like the most important thing is sort of winning the fight and being right instead of doing what's right for your relationship. Which doesn't involve either of you winning necessarily. So, like you said, that protective part can kind of move you in that direction. And we gotta have a lot of compassion for that. It's a protective part for a reason, but also just be aware of it, right? Because there's some, there's some ways that it might be rearing its head that's actually very hurtful for the relationship unintentionally.
Liz Higgins: (31:08)
Yeah. A hundred percent. So Katie, what are some ways the couples could work together rather than turn against each other when it comes to these family dynamics?
Katie Hevia: (31:19)
Yeah, so thanks for asking that! And I will say that this is so much easier said than done. Um, but if we're going to kind of take some high level recommendations away, if you're not too deep and stuck in this cycle, these are some easy ways to navigate these conversations. So, first is to remember to keep it about you and your partner, not about your in-laws. And I know I brought that up a lot, but the important thing to remember in that is that you really can't control other people. You can only control how you two navigate them together. So that one's a big one. Um, the second I would say, try to show empathy for each other's positions. So one partner is new to navigating this family dynamic. In fact, you're both new to navigating each other's family dynamics. And the other is learning or seeing a new perspective about their family for the first time, maybe ever in their whole life.
Katie Hevia: (32:15)
So that's a difficult position for both of them to be in. You're both sort of learning together. Um, and an add-on to that is that this stuff takes a long time to figure out. So you're seeing your family in a new light for the first time. And the other is sort of figuring out what they want their family unit to look like, what you both want your family unit to look like together. This stuff definitely does not happen overnight, so have some patience with it. It's gonna, it's gonna take a bit. And then the final one, and I would say this is probably with any big challenging conversation, is to approach these conversations with compassion, curiosity... Try not to be judgmental, try to really understand each other's stance on it. Um, and just give yourselves some grace in this process because it's rarely ever perfect. And it's a, it's a tough one for everyone. So try to remember that. And just give yourselves grace where you can.
Liz Higgins: (33:09)
That's great. I think I read one time, a long time ago, like one of the greatest danger zones you can find yourself in is when you're thinking that you know everything there is to know about your partner. And that's like, such a curiosity killer. And that word really sticks out to me. I'm wondering, you know, can you maybe say a little more about what you mean by curiosity? Like... 'Cause people do get so close to their partner and you know each other so deeply well. For those people that feel like "I do know my partner, like a thousand percent," how can they still maintain this practice of curiosity? And, why would they want to?
Katie Hevia: (33:51)
Oh gosh. Well, I just pictured an iceberg when you said that. I mean, you might know your partner so well, but think about all that is underneath the surface with regards to their family intergenerational dynamics. Like, their entire family's history that led to them being them and their family being their family. Inevitably, there's so much there that even your partner isn't a hundred percent aware of, hasn't consciously processed. And so, realizing that in itself helps to sort of lower the judgment level. Like, being curious allows you to have a conversation about it and sort of explore it together rather than assuming that your partner even really knows what you're talking about or what's going on or what you're pointing out. So it really is an, it's a journey you're exploring what family dynamics mean to both of you together at the same time.
Liz Higgins: (34:48)
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I don't know if you do this either and you know, share if you want, but don't, you don't have to. It's like, reverse curiosity. It's like, I've learned over the years and through being a therapist, like to sometimes actually go to my husband to ask him for feedback about me.
Katie Hevia: (35:08)
Ah.
Liz Higgins: (35:09)
It's like... give me the thought, like. I'm curious about this, about myself. Like what do you see about this? And kind of inviting his curiosity to respond to what I wanna learn about myself or understand about myself. And when you get to a place like that, boy, you sure do learn things about yourself.
Katie Hevia: (35:27)
Yes, a hundred percent. And I love that. And I, I have done that with my husband too. And there really is so much to gain. It's interesting to see how they perceive you. And again, this is something where you can't put your... You can't totally assume, you know how they feel about you in all ways, but especially your family, right? So kind of like taking yourself out of the, uh, the perspective you've always been in with your family, and trying to look at it from your partner's perspective might help you to learn something new. And just, uh, help you understand each other in that dynamic more.
Liz Higgins: (36:03)
Gosh, that's so true. So true. And you know what I was thinking about too, just regarding like boundaries and everything? Like, and thinking that, you know, certain things about each other and whatever? Is change. You know, like even with established boundaries and needs and stuff like that, like we still change over time. And so like, you might make certain agreements, or arrangements, or boundary practices with your partner, with in-laws, and family, and those things may actually change over time. And I'm wondering like...
Katie Hevia: (36:35)
Hmm.
Liz Higgins: (36:36)
What do you think are maybe some of those signs that people would experience that indicate like, yeah, we did establish this one thing, but like, maybe this need is changing for us?
Katie Hevia: (36:46)
Yeah, I think that's really important to point out that this is evolving always. And I think that also takes some of the pressure off of some of these initial conversations about expectations and boundaries. Because sometimes, it can feel like this is a binding contract that we're establishing right now. Like, we are always going to have this boundary with my family or your family. And that's just a serious thing to feel like you're entering into. So, it is so important to, uh, just keep that perspective in mind that it is an evolving process. And I wouldn't say, I don't know if there's something that like stands out to me of like a specific point in time when, when couples are like, 'Okay, it's time to change the boundary now.' Yeah. I think that's gonna vary for every couple, but even just being aware that yeah, you can, you can check in on it and it's going to evolve is, uh, a really helpful tool.
Liz Higgins: (37:37)
Right? Gosh, it'd be so much easier if it was just like something that hit you in the face.
Katie Hevia: (37:44)
It's time now to change this boundary.
Liz Higgins: (37:46)
Hey, that boundary came a'knockin. We need to talk.
Katie Hevia: (37:49)
Yeah. If only we can get those times.
Liz Higgins: (37:52)
I know, right? So what do you feel like it looks like when a couple goes from just surviving through these things to really thriving together?
Katie Hevia: (38:00)
Yeah, so... So what will look different in terms of the behavior changes is that, even though your in-laws will continue to have their quirks (which they will) this isn't gonna result in feeling like a wedge is being driven between you and your partner. And, a big way of knowing that that is the case is seeing that you can laugh about this stuff together. And I think that's so important because this is a huge sign of success. It means that both of them can safely, and successfully, and also respectfully, acknowledge the absurdity of their families without it, meaning that they're admitting defeat, or being critical, or betraying their own family. And just being able to laugh about it. And really what that shows is that they can, uh, they can trust that they're in it together for the long run and that no one's being asked to choose sides. So that's what it'll look like.
Katie Hevia: (38:52)
And what it's gonna feel like is like, you're on the same team, but it's not a team against your families. No one is winning or losing anymore. You're just, uh, figuring out how to be together in this. In a way that feels good and safe for both parties.
Liz Higgins: (39:12)
Ah, that sounds lovely. I love that. Yeah. And I, I mean, I really do, I love that you can kind of paint that picture, um, just eloquently like that. Because I imagine you've seen that too. You've seen people really shift into that space together and can, can really recognize the difference. And they do too, because they're feeling what you've described.
Katie Hevia: (39:32)
Yeah. And what a relief it is, 'cause you know, this stuff's gonna happen. There's gonna be things that come up that kind of rub you both the wrong way, right? It might not always feel great in the dynamic, but if you can trust that your partner cares about what you're going through, that they have your back, I mean, that's just such a relief. And that does, that's everything. That really is, you know, what we're all striving for when we navigate these situations as a couple.
Liz Higgins: (40:00)
I love that. Katie, thank you so much! Is there any, like, last tidbit you would share with our listeners? Or if people are listening and they have kind of been going through a lot related to in-laws, and extended family, and just the merging of all those relationships... What, um, what would you say to those individuals listening that maybe have really gotten something from this today?
Katie Hevia: (40:24)
I would just say that know that you are not alone. This is such a common, uh, challenge that people go through. It's really complex. It's okay that it's feeling hard, you know? Like we said at the beginning, there's this expectation sometimes for things to be perfect. And if they're not, then it means that everything is bad. It's okay that it's not always great. So I would just say, you know, keep working on it together, and focus on each other and how you two get through it as a unit, rather than how you expect to change anyone else.
Liz Higgins: (40:57)
Oh yeah. And on that mic drop, Katie, thank you for talking this out with us. This is actually so great. I'm excited for people to hear what you've had to say about this and really appreciate you for joining me!
Katie Hevia: (41:09)
Yeah, thanks for having me on. This was a lot of fun!
Liz Higgins: (41:12)
It really was. And for those listening, if you want to learn more about Katie, you can read her bio, you can meet with her in Dallas (or online in Texas), and we will post a link to her bio page in the show notes. So definitely check her out and learn more about what it's like to work with her. Thanks again, Katie.
Katie Hevia: (41:31)
Thanks Liz. Bye.
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