Episode 59: Attachment, Vulnerability & Modern Relationships
A Conversation with Michael Ashenfelter, LPC-S
This week on The Millennial Life Podcast, we're diving into a powerful conversation with therapist Michael Ashenfelter about men, therapy, and the often misunderstood terrain of vulnerability. Michael brings a grounded, compassionate perspective to the challenges many men face when it comes to emotional openness and seeking support. We talk about what gets in the way, what makes healing possible, and how redefining strength can transform relationships—from the inside out.
EPISODE NOTES:
We can make change when we slow down and attend to our emotions.
If we go through emotion, logic will make sense.
Shame is an adaptive way in which we’re trying to connect.
A lot of what anxious-avoidant types need is validation.
Dismissive-avoidants are often afraid of their emotions, leading them to deeply contain those emotions.
An avoidant attachment type’s combination is a positive view of self and negative view of other. But this negative view is not about an inflated view.
Our view stems from where and how we had our needs met when they were not accessible and available.
Millennial men have dealt with the struggle of mixed messages in terms of emotion and feeling. Because of this, millennial men have somewhat more emotional attunement than past generations.
The great news about attachment is that repair is always available. It is never too late for repair.
Where bonding actually happens is in the repair.
Men have emotions. It’s a matter of the environment being safe enough for them to feel they can have them.
Learn more about Michael and Ashenfelter Counseling
Check out Michael’s podcast, Cocktail Therapy
Listen to Becky Kennedy’s TED Talk
Liz Higgins: (00:03)
Hey y'all! Liz Higgins here, and welcome to the Millennial Life Podcast, where my goal is to share conversations that will inspire you and drive you toward the life and relationships you desire As your host, I'm here to share what I've learned as a licensed therapist and bring you the transformative voices of other professionals and experts that want you to cultivate relational wellness for life. Thanks for listening, and enjoy the episode!Liz Higgins: (00:32)
Hello, everybody! Happy Friday. It's a beautiful Friday here in Dallas. And I am very excited about today's guest! We have a very well-respected clinician on the show today: Michael Ashenfelter, Licensed Professional Counselor Supervisor. Michael, hello. Thanks for joining me!
Michael Ashenfelter: (00:53)
Hello! Thanks so much for having me. I'm excited!
Liz Higgins: (00:55)
Yeah, I'm excited about this too. I've heard so much about your work, and had the pleasure of meeting you (quite a while back at this point.) But I'm excited to learn from you today and let our listeners hear about the things you have to say about relationships and stuff. But I would love to kickstart this episode introducing you, because there's so much about you that I think is just... uh, you know, influences who you are, as the clinician you are - right now, today - and will color our conversation today as well. So... Michael is a Licensed Professional Counselor, and a Supervisor, dedicated to providing compassionate care centered in the ideals of fostering emotional wellness, and nurturing stronger relationships for couples and individuals. Love it! Michael has a Master's of Arts and Counseling from Dallas Theological Seminary, and a Bachelor of Arts and Sciences and Human Development and Family Studies from Texas Tech University.
Liz Higgins: (01:52)
And, Michael is the president of the North Texas EFT steering team. He's committed in this group to advancing the practice of Emotionally Focused Therapy - in the community and beyond. And so Michael, specializing in Emotionally Focused Therapy (which I know is just an incredible way of working with clients) is a very highly effective, evidence-based approach that helps couples, individuals, and families repair, strengthen, and deepen their emotional connections. Michael also integrates mindfulness acceptance practices, and a humanistic approach to empower clients to regain control and find peace in their lives. Michael believes in advocating for his clients and creating a safe, nurturing environment where they can explore and heal. His approach is rooted in fostering secure attachments, and empowering individuals to maximize their potential through supportive therapeutic relationships. Outside of the practice, Michael enjoys tapping into his creative, playful side by entertaining friends and family with mixology and cooking elaborate meals. What is an example of an elaborate meal? I gotta know.
Michael Ashenfelter: (03:06)
Oh, yeah. My most recent one last Sunday was a beef Wellington.
Liz Higgins: (03:10)
Oh, fancy. Yeah. Nice. Did it turn out how you wanted it to turn out?
Michael Ashenfelter: (03:14)
Perfect. It was so great.
Liz Higgins: (03:16)
That's fantastic. That's great. Um, yeah. So a couple more things... Michael has an interest in understanding the human condition through the lens of attachment theory, and Michael's newest adventure is co-hosting his podcast: Cocktail Therapy, where he gets to play and combine the hobbies of mixology, pop culture, and nerding out on attachment theory. And we're definitely gonna link to that podcast so that anybody who's interested in that can go have a great time with you over there!
Michael Ashenfelter: (03:45)
Yeah, sounds great!
Liz Higgins: (03:47)
Michael, thanks again for, for joining me. I can tell, you know, just in all that that I just shared, you are well-educated. You know, you know a lot about what we're about to talk about. Relationships and, specifically, a little bit about men in relationships. Right? But before all that, maybe share with us a little bit about your journey into therapy.
Michael Ashenfelter: (04:09)
Sure. Yeah. It's always funny to hear your own bio. It's like, 'Oh wow, that... I sound way more important than I am.' Um, but my journey to therapy, I think is, is really goofy, actually. I did come from a divorced family, and as a kid I had the thought of, instead of like being a fireman or a policeman, I did have the thought of like, I would like to be a therapist. And that kind of never went away. But when I went to school, I originally went as a vocal performance major, and realized quickly after (I'd say quickly, two years) that I'm not gonna make any money at this. And I'm not that great. So, I did what any logical college student did, and I went where all the cute girls were, which was in human development family studies at Texas Tech.
Michael Ashenfelter: (04:59)
Um, so a lot of my friends from a ministry I was in were there, and I was like, 'that sounds interesting.' But I remember the last day of one of the exit classes. They were like... We were in a school of human sciences. And it had, like, dieticians, restaurant hotel management, and then early childhood development and human studies. And so, they were all going around and talking about what they could do. And I raised my hand. I'm like, 'What, what can I do with this HDFS degree?' And they're like, 'Well, you can open a daycare, or you can go into human resources.' I was like, I don't wanna do any of those!
Liz Higgins: (05:34)
You're like, why didn't you tell me this when I got here?
Michael Ashenfelter: (05:38)
Right. And so they're like, so you can go on and get your Masters or your Doctorate in counseling. And I was like, well, there we go. So I started my search there. So it wasn't til later... I'm like, oh, it's all fitting. Like this is, this is an early calling, I guess, from my life. And I ended up going to DTS (or Dallas Theological Seminary) and that was just based on, I had a couple mentors who were graduates from there. And I found out DTS had a counseling program that's an integrative approach. So it wasn't just pure biblical counseling. There's integrative, actual study of psychology with a biblical worldview. And that appealed to me. And so I went there and yeah. The rest is history, I guess!
Liz Higgins: (06:20)
Yeah, it really is. It's so interesting how those formative college years, it can feel so, like, untethered, like where, what am I doing? But I hear that constant thread for you since you were young of like, this interest in counseling. And that you eventually ended up back there. So that's really cool. Where did it come to be for you, the specialization of couples? Because that's definitely your realm and not necessarily what like all the LPC-focused, you know, studies would be about. Right?
Michael Ashenfelter: (06:49)
Right. Yeah. And you know, honestly, if I'd, if I'd have known what I know now, I would've likely gone back and gotten either an LMFT or at an LCSW track. Just in a broader scope... But couples work came really at the end of my Texas Tech years. And just our studies... We had had two classes in marriage there, and it just fascinated me. I didn't do well on them, honestly, 'cause it was so confusing. But I think that I liked the challenge. Yeah. I think that's what continues now with couples. It is really challenging work. But one, I love the challenge. But two, I feel like I have more... I have more to work with because I'm not getting to experience just the self-report, but I'm getting to experience how it's being received, and how they're playing back with one another. And so I feel like I just have more to work with. And I enjoy that.
Liz Higgins: (07:46)
Yeah. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. Mm-hmm. Well, and you know, I, I know this about you, but I'm hoping you can maybe share a little bit with listeners! Um, just like... What EFT is. That approach, from your perspective. And I mentioned, you know, when I intro'ed you, you're a part of the steering committee for EFT. Maybe even tell us a little bit about what you do in that role.
Michael Ashenfelter: (08:05)
Yeah. Um, so EFT, I came to later, actually, in my career. I'm almost 20 years into my career now, which I can't believe. I feel so old.
Liz Higgins: (08:17)
You're old.
Michael Ashenfelter: (08:18)
I know. I'm still a millennial. I'm right on the edge! But with my history at Texas Tech, which in the early childhood development was heavily drenched in attachment and science and marrying it with some of the practical things I had at DTS. I went to one of Sue Johnson's presentations here in Dallas and it just worked. It just made sense. I'm like, okay, the world... it makes sense again. Because I used to practice Imago Therapy, which is like, it, it's nothing. It's not that it's wrong, it's just what I found with it in that it's active, reflective listening. "I feel" statements avoid using all the great communication skills. But what I found is, couples kept coming back in, in like three months after we had wrapped up, and they're still fighting on the same topic nonetheless.
Michael Ashenfelter: (09:09)
And what EFT really introduced to me was the idea of the focus on emotion... It's that when emotion arises, we don't have the capacity. We don't have the prefrontal cortex accessibility to go, you know, Michael said I should talk about how I feel right now. And when emotion's there, we're just like, screw you buddy, like, let's, let's go. And, and so that's where Emotionally Focused Therapy, where I connected with it. And I found that we can make change when we slow down and attend to the emotion. And part of what I think we're gonna talk about here today is, with men in particular, a lot of times they wanna solve things through logic. And I think that's one of the things I had to work with a lot of that, if we go through emotion, logic will make so much sense. But if we start with logic, we will get stunted. Blocked by emotion every time. And so EFT has a way of allowing us to do that, to go in that order so that we can become unstuck.
Liz Higgins: (10:10)
Yeah. I love that you just described it that way, 'cause it is kind of this, you know, specific order through which you are leaning into these things. And it's not that other modalities maybe aren't good in their own right. They have plenty to offer. But I've, I've often looked at it that way (even for myself studying Relational Life Therapy, which I feel is headed in the same direction) but from a very different way. It's like the emotion for you is the on-ramp to getting where you need to go. Whereas with some other models, it's like they're, they're sort of holding off and getting into that later. And yeah. I, I, I'm always a little, I have "the FOMO" 'cause I'm like, man, I just missed that EFT bandwagon. But honestly, if I were looking for a couples therapist for myself, knowing what I know about everything now, I would go to an EFT therapist first.
Michael Ashenfelter: (10:58)
That's awesome. Yeah.
Liz Higgins: (11:00)
And we know that it works, so that's very exciting. But yeah. So the steering committee, what's your role with that? I mean, president of the steering community! What does that entail?
Michael Ashenfelter: (11:09)
Sounds so fancy, right?
Liz Higgins: (11:12)
I keep saying like, honestly. Yeah.
Michael Ashenfelter: (11:14)
Yeah. Honestly, it is, it is just kind of steering a wheel. I find myself in leadership roles, roles I just like to do. And so it was offered to me because I just got involved and engaged with the, the community. And it's just like-minded people. And we offer trainings that are specifically focused on Emotionally Focused Therapy. And so my role as the president in this community is to connect with different EFT trainers throughout the nation. Bring them in to teach and expand our skills in EFT. So like, we have one coming up in June with one of my mentors, Dr. Rebecca Jorgensen. And she's gonna be focusing on working with shame within the couple dynamic and how, really, if we go into shame too quickly and too fast, it'll block and derail the whole program. But really recognizing shame as an adaptive way in which we're trying to connect, but it just blocks us. So she'll be coming to do a whole two day seminar on that, with integration, with some polyvagal stuff and trauma.
Liz Higgins: (12:22)
Oh, very cool. Well, and for you, Michael, like... How would you say being in a role like that, where you're kind of pulling the community together, teaching clinicians this model. Like, how does that color how you practice with your couples?
Michael Ashenfelter: (12:38)
Honestly, sometimes they can put too much pressure on me. 'Cause I feel like I have to get it right and I have to be perfect. And so I actually have to work against that, and kind of relax into, you know... I've been a part of this community for goodness gracious, almost 10 years. And so I can relax in what I know. I've done all the training, but I do kind of have to remind myself I have nothing to prove here. But just to be in the room and be present. And lean on what I've gained over the years. But yeah, sometimes it can be... there's a pressure. And I don't actually... My wife gets onto me all the time. I don't really tell people that I'm president of the community too often.
Liz Higgins: (13:22)
Yeah. You don't have it advertised anywhere.
(13:24)
I think the first time I've ever written it is actually writing to you on the bio. So yeah. I sometimes even just forget.
Liz Higgins: (13:33)
That's awesome. Like, I so love and appreciate that you're sharing the humanity in that for you. 'Cause I, I can relate it's, and not that that's the point, right. But I think so many people listening will relate to that. It's like, so many people continue pushing themselves, and we grow, and we, we train, and we develop. And I think that's a sign of, that's emotional maturity, right? To not lead with those pieces necessarily. So appreciate that. So thinking about men in therapy, you know, that's kind of why I reached out to have this conversation with you. It's something that you work with often in therapy. You see a lot of couples, you work with some men in therapy as well. And when we talked before this show, you had described yourself as like a, a solid landing place for men who have maybe struggled with therapy in the past. And especially those that have maybe worked with a female therapist and felt like they weren't seen or, or heard. Maybe they didn't have a voice. So can you share a little more about that dynamic and what that's like for you?
Michael Ashenfelter: (14:39)
Yeah. I, I really like being a safe landing space. I, I used to think like, oh, you know, when couples come in from other therapists, it's really easy to go like, oh, what were they doing? And kind of be judgy. But I think over the years of maturity, it's like, oh, I don't know. Each couple is where they are and they're having their own experience, and it's not necessarily the therapist. But they, they do have an experience where most commonly they felt unheard or ganged up up on. And I don't know if that's necessarily by other female therapists, but there is a dynamic. And I, and I think I just hold them coming into the room differently and try to really align with them quickly that whatever's going on, whatever they're doing, I truly believe is an adaptive strategy at trying to stay connected in this relationship.
Michael Ashenfelter: (15:29)
It may look the opposite way, but for some reason, somehow this strategy that maybe others have judged, or told you you need to be better at, is actually you working really hard on trying to save and be in this relationship. And so I think that's what helps align me. I mean, it's not like I'm a big masculine man, 'cause I'm not. I am... I love to cook, and make cocktails, and arrange flowers. So like, it's not my machismo that's, like, connecting with them. I think it's more just an acceptance of them that's really making a safe landing space.
Liz Higgins: (16:02)
Yeah. Well, that makes a lot of sense. And you know, we, we, we don't love generalizations in our field, right? We can't lump any one person into this, you know, idea that we think is just all encompassing. But that, so that being said, for men, you feel like there are these generalizations made that they're maybe more likely to be withdrawn or walled off, or more anxious and insecure? And maybe even boundaryless? Like, do you, do you feel like you see sort of one type of, kind of relational persona come in with men that you work with? Or is it kind of, you know, all across the spectrum sort of thing?
Michael Ashenfelter: (16:45)
I think it, it is all across the spectrum at the same time. There are some recurrences that happen frequently. Um, and I think with men, it would be that they're more in the dismissive-avoidant category of attachment styles. So that idea that they do become shut down, they deactivate, they pull from emotion. And I, I think that, I think it's changing, like when we talk about the millennial age gap, um, I think that's changing a bit. I think older generations, the men are much more in the avoidant camp. But that, I think that's also due to how we raise men. And so that avoidance strategy is, is a response to how they engage with their significant caregiver. I think that there's really common pattern, especially in, in a US dynamic in that older generation. So yeah.
Liz Higgins: (17:43)
Yeah. I, I think that, yeah, that sounds really relevant. And I know just perspective from my team over here is like, we, we see that too. You know, it's like, what's the origin story? And where did this once really make sense. For this person, man, or, you know, otherwise, right? Like to, to learn to do this adaptive move. Because I suppose that really is it, like, it wouldn't be happening if there was no purpose. We just...
Michael Ashenfelter: (18:09)
Right.
Liz Higgins: (18:10)
We're too smart of a species to sit around doing stuff that makes no sense.
Michael Ashenfelter: (18:14)
Right. So, I mean, if we're securely attached and we have the flexibility to know that if I need you, I can reach out for you, that you respond and engage with me. If we have that in our bones, then we don't have these insecurities that pop up that say, you know, run from emotion or attack emotion. We, we just get to thrive. We get to play. Yeah. But often cases that should, we don't, we don't get that. So.
Liz Higgins: (18:43)
Yeah. Don't get it. And then don't know how to give it to ourselves as adults, really. So like, kind of reflecting specifically in on withdrawn or more avoidant men in therapy... Like, what does that maybe look like to you in a relational context when you're working with a couple?
Michael Ashenfelter: (19:01)
Yeah. So through the EFT lens, there's actually a, a strategy and some step work into that in that we wanna work and reengage the withdrawer first. (In EFT, they call it withdrawer. It's avoidant.) We wanna engage them first. And that's so that when the, the opposing partner that's usually anxiously attached, or the pursuer when they share their vulnerability, if I, if I can get them to reengage and do that work with them first, they're able to hold the anxiety of their partner. But if I attempt to work with an anxious attachment too soon, before strengthening that withdrawer, they'll share their anxiety, and just drop 'em, and it'll just repeat. Because it's not because they, they don't care. They just don't know how. And they don't have that, that muscle memory to do so yet. So they'll unintentionally drop them, but then just reactivate the wound that they're coming in for. So one of the, like, that's one of the main focuses. I try to identify that, whether it's the male or female - again, usually the male.
Liz Higgins: (20:13)
I am kind of curious though, 'cause I feel like I would identify. Uh, if my husband listens to this, he'd be like, yes, that's correct. But I'm more of the anxious pursuer. Right? And I know that that can look a bit escalated at times. Like, so is, is it not a piece of the puzzle to first like, Hey.... You know, kind of like calm that person down before doing that work with the withdrawer? Because I just feel like, you know, sometimes the pursuer can be a little scary to the withdrawn partner.
Michael Ashenfelter: (20:46)
Absolutely. Oh, they can be terrifying. Yeah. Um, yeah. Part of the work, yeah, you don't just ignore the, the anxious pursuer. Um, part of the work is, is validating them. So you're not doing the deep work. But a lot of what we need on that anxious side is validation. And that validation will soothe us, quiet us. Doesn't take the pain away. I mean, oftentimes what I'll, I'll share with a client is... I'll reflect what they're saying. I'll try to match their energy. And then I'll, I'll gently say 'I hear you. Thank you for sharing that. I need to go do some work over here with your partner. And I really wanna make sure we come back to this.' And so as long as I faithfully come back to it, and show that I'm listening and validating that, they will be grounded enough to let me do some of the work.
Liz Higgins: (21:43)
Yeah. So, yeah. It's kind of that, 'Hey, I see you there, hang on.' You know? Because I, I'm, and I'm sure it takes some couples, especially ones that are deep into it, a minute to trust you and to trust that you've got it.
Michael Ashenfelter: (21:57)
Yeah. Yeah.
Liz Higgins: (21:58)
Yeah. For sure. So like, attachment theory, especially EFT that you use, how does that help clients that are struggling with that vulnerability and like, emotional expression?
Michael Ashenfelter: (22:11)
I would say it's probably one of the hardest things I do that's so well worth it once we get into it. To me, I kind of think of, oh, what is that movie? Is it Goodwill Hunting with Robin Williams? Yeah. It's, it's that scene with him and Matt Damon, and he is like, it's okay. It's okay. And he just stayed present and stayed consistent. And so with the emotion, it's, it's not about, uh, just kind of a one time observational look, an analytical look. Uh, and describing like, oh, this is your emotion. This is what's happening. So like, the feeling chart, that's a great thing. It's a great way to help identify. But for any EFT, the work is not just being able to identify. It's truly like, oh, can you feel it? Can you feel it right here, right now?
Michael Ashenfelter: (23:02)
And part of that work is just staying with emotion. And clients will oftentimes try to pull away, especially if we're working with avoidants. They'll, they'll distract and go away. They'll make a joke. And it's just about consistently coming back. And one of the ways that Sue Johnson, the founder of EFT says it, is that you're just massaging the amygdala every time you repeat it. And so she's encouraging, um, in our work, a minimum of five times of repetition before you move on. And as the client, I think it feels really good. As a clinician, I feel like I'm being repetitive and redundant. But it's not until I do the practice, I'm like, no, no. Like you can see it work, like it's crazy! And you see them just settle into the emotion and really start to embody it.
Liz Higgins: (23:50)
Yeah. 'Cause I was wondering about that when you said you're asking clients, can you actually feel it? And so many people come into therapy and they have lost that connection to, really, the physiology in their emotions, you know? So, so I'm hearing it's like that repetition that really allows them to kind of open that door. But do you find that some people are just like so disconnected that... Is there any part of this work for you that's, like, truly helping them get connected to their body and like, that felt experience?
Michael Ashenfelter: (24:25)
Yeah. I think that, that direct question of like, where are you feeling it? And I'll, especially if I know, if I'm anticipating some resistance, I'll, I'll let 'em know. I'm like, I know this can be a goofy question, but if you could tell me where your body feels that. So if it's sad, like where, where do you feel sadness in your body? And it's not uncommon. They're like, I, I don't know. Why? But, and then I'll just explain, I'll do some psych ed with them, um, of just, it is really hard for our mind and body to be incongruent. So if you're having trouble coming up with the emotion in your mind... And from a cognitive standpoint, I tell 'em like, it's kinda like a cheat code. If we can go to your body, it'll reveal it. So I'm not looking for the specific, exact knowing.
Michael Ashenfelter: (25:13)
I just wanna know like, is there pressure? Is there a flutter? Um, is there tightness? Do you feel heavy? Like, what is it? And I'll just kind of move around in it with them. And with an avoidant, you have to be really patient. Because the risk is, if I come in hot and I'm like, where do you feel it? What's going on? How, where, uh, your shoulders here, there, I just became their partner. I just became the pursuer. And so I'm activating all their, their reactive system. Their attachment system. And so they're just gonna shut down.
Liz Higgins: (25:45)
Yeah. Yeah.
Michael Ashenfelter: (25:46)
So oftentimes we're working with this dismissive avoidant, it's, I'm kind of looking off. I'm not looking directly at them. I'm doing a lot of wondering, um, I'm making a lot of room as not put here of like, this isn't a test, this isn't a, you're not gonna get it right or wrong. It's just, what would it be like. So yeah.
Liz Higgins: (26:09)
And like, it's the dismissive and dismissive avoidant because of that relational component of like, they're avoidant in themselves, therefore they're going to be dismissive of others. Like, is that where that comes from or...?
Michael Ashenfelter: (26:24)
It's, it's, it's a bit of both. It's a dismissive of, I think of it more of it's dismissive of emotion in self and other. Because a dismissive of when had to dismiss their own feelings to get their needs met by their caregiver. And so emotions aren't safe, um, within themselves or the other. So, yeah. Um, so it, yeah, that's the... They dismiss that. They disregulate. And one way to think about it is they downregulate, um, where the anxious attachment upregulates. So we're downregulating, we're dismissing, we're pushing down emotion. Containing. That's one thing I wanna make clear though, with dismissive, it doesn't mean they don't feel. They actually feel greatly. Like they are feeling you. You often see in dismissive, avoidant, and a lot of men, they look like they don't care on the outside. They can look cool, calm and collected, but there is anger, there is rage, there is temper. There is strong emotion that is deeply contained because they're afraid of it. They're afraid if they let it out, you're gonna go away. And they're afraid of themselves and their own emotion. And they're just containing all of it.
Liz Higgins: (27:46)
Yeah. Yeah. That feels pretty huge to just kind of sit on for a sec, because I, I mean... I definitely have a glimpse of what that can look like relationally when a couples come in and they're just on the brink, or like at the height of just such disconnect. And that other partner, opposite of what you just described, is just like, why don't you feel?!
Michael Ashenfelter: (28:10)
Right. And they start throwing things like, oh, you must be on the spectrum. Or sociopathic. I connected all sorts of labels.
Liz Higgins: (28:22)
Yeah, true, true. I feel like a few years ago it was like narcissist, you know? And sure. That can be real, but I think can also be misplaced. Because what you're explaining right there, like, it's just so deep rooted. The history goes back so far. Well, and you know, you frame avoidant attachment styles in a way that can actually feel less about gender and more about survival strategies. Can you maybe say a little more about that? Like that avoidant role?
Michael Ashenfelter: (28:54)
Yeah. Um, it is, so that's what attachment is really about. Like the attachment system is how did I get my needs met when they were not accessible and available? So over time, this pattern happens where we, we go to an adaptive strategy. And that really is not gendered, um, because there's, there's plenty of women who are avoidant. But again, I think the way in which, like our US culture raises men as boys, it, it leans to dismiss your emotions. Your emotions aren't safe, your emotions aren't valued, your emotions aren't wanted. Um, and so that can definitely create the survival strategy of, oh, to get to get you closer to me, or for us to be in relationship, I have to squash mine and your feelings.
Liz Higgins: (29:49)
Yeah.
Michael Ashenfelter: (29:50)
And another adaptive strategy, one way to look at the attachment style is the view of self and a view of other. And an avoidant attachment, their combination is a positive view of self and a negative view of other. And so, like, at the surface, that can look like a narcissist. Right? Uh, like this inflated view of self. It's not about an inflated view. It's about I can, I learned at a young age that to get my needs met, I have to go inward and on my own. And I can trust only in me to get my needs met. The negative view of other isn't that other people are evil or bad, it's just they can't comfort me. They can't give me my need. Um, and so I don't rely on them. I only rely on me.
Liz Higgins: (30:36)
Yeah. And I think it's, it's an interesting thing because it can land people in front of you in your office that (at least I've had this experience) due to this childhood where that's the adaptation that was learned. They also became wildly successful.
Michael Ashenfelter: (30:54)
Oh. Totally.
Liz Higgins: (30:56)
It's like... You can be a leader, you can be a business owner. You know, you don't sweat the small and stuff like that. Because you, just, are a lone ranger kind of thing. And so how do you kind of work with men (but we can shift into like anybody too) that have kind of taken on that role throughout their life? And it's brought them these big wins. Does it make it difficult for them to trust, like, working on changing that?
Michael Ashenfelter: (31:21)
Oh, absolutely. Well, it, yes and no. It does in that you are going up against, Hey, this has been like, look at me. I am at the top of my game. And people come to me, people trust me. Right? But what they run into is everyone trusts me, but my partner. And so it's like, what the hell? And then that's where, that's the entrance. It's like, yeah. Because this isn't about your enoughness. They've already accepted you as enough, they wanna be with you. So the performance game isn't really working anymore. They don't want your performance. They want your connection. And that's really hard. And I wouldn't be that direct, honestly, with them, especially if they get, um... because that's gonna be too much to hear. It's gonna be too overwhelming. They're gonna automatically think, oh, I can't do that. I'm gonna fail. And so they'll shut down.
Liz Higgins: (32:13)
Hmm. Because it's just this foreign concept. It's like, what? Connection? How do you do that? What is that gonna... Vulnerability, feelings?
Michael Ashenfelter: (32:19)
No, no.
Liz Higgins: (32:21)
Right. So it's really quite, uh, more of this like, subtle art to get into that space.
Michael Ashenfelter: (32:27)
Yeah. It... yes. Um, but I think what you're saying too, is if you can just validate that, oh, this makes so much sense. This is hard. Because everything else is telling you this is what works. And so then I might softly say, but right now, right here, you look over and you see your partner crying. And you don't know what to do. You're like, I keep trying, I keep doing this, I keep doing this. I wash the dishes. I think of this. I ask for sex politely. I don't know, all this stuff. Like, they go through their, their checklist of like, I'm trying to be the best and good. And now she's still crying, or they're still crying. Yeah. And so it's like, yeah! Because performance here isn't the name of the game.
Liz Higgins: (33:11)
Woof. It's a big one. Yeah. And I mean, I imagine for some people it's like you kind of have to, it like they say, hit rock bottom before it's like, okay, fine, I'll listen. But, but I love that you're saying like with your, with your approach, it's not necessarily just explaining this to somebody. It's like you're in that moment where you can even use the relationship in front of you to show. Just to help them, I guess, be in that reality of woof, like, this is not working. Yeah.
Michael Ashenfelter: (33:38)
I love all your noises actually. Like the, those are great therapeutic approaches of just being like, oh woof. Wow. Like that. Like Yeah. If you don't do EFT you should, 'cause you'd be great at it.
Liz Higgins: (33:50)
You're talking about me right now? Oh, I love that. Oh, thank you. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's amazing to be in that space with the client and help them. Yeah. I don't know. When you see that shift and you can kind of witness, they just got it. They just felt something different there. We're onto something, you know? And, surprise, for those listening, it doesn't kill you, you know? Right? It really doesn't. But with like men and, you know, we're over here, my neck of the woods really honing in on millennial men. Compared to previous generations, what do you think they do bring to relationships that's different? 'Cause I so agree with what you said earlier, like, generationally we've kind of made a lot of movement. And I really think, like, men in our generation just already present a bit differently than maybe one to two generations ago. So yeah. What do you think they bring to relationships and where do they still struggle?
Michael Ashenfelter: (34:47)
Yeah. I think... And maybe it's just because I'm one of them, I think they have almost... I think they have more, actually more to struggle with because, um, it's like the, the millennial straddles... The millennial man, I think, straddles being parented by someone who was like, suck it up, knock the dirt off. Don't cry, don't feel your feelings. But they also got, and you know, in the late nineties, in their developmental years, they got, Hey, it's okay to feel. It's, I want you to feel. And so the, I think we're struggling with like a mixed message that can be really confusing. And so I think millennial men have a little more emotional attunement coming in than the older generation. And so that's one thing they got going for 'em. But there's still a classic struggle of, am I allowed to? Am I allowed to be vulnerable? Will you think I'm weak if I'm vulnerable? So, yeah.
Liz Higgins: (35:57)
Yeah. Dude, that's like hitting me right now. 'Cause I'm like, Ooh, that is so true. Like, 'cause the messaging has been there. And I'm thinking of that book "Generation Me", it's so good. Yeah. But it like shows these like worksheets children were given like in the nineties and whatever, and it's like, I'm so special, you know, self-esteem, like I'm worth it. And it's like, we're trying to promote this messaging. But what's really deep under the surface there still for men is like, but, but can I actually. Or will I be, you know, attacked for this, or judged, or shamed? And... Yeah.
Michael Ashenfelter: (36:35)
Yeah. I, yeah. I don't know if it's because I'm right on the cusp of the millennial line, but I was, I was told both. I was told I will give you something to cry about. Um, so stop crying. And encouraged to be sensitive and caring, especially to women. Um, and so like, there's this, yeah. It, it, it's confusing. Like how do you, how do you do that? What do you not use your own emotion yet connect to someone else's emotion? It's really confusing.
Liz Higgins: (37:11)
Well, yeah. Totally. And I'm wondering for you, like... From this attachment-based lens that you really see relationships and growth through, like, if you could paint this picture of like, because honestly, I don't know if you feel this way, but like being in the couples therapy space, I feel just transformed me as a parent. And I am a parent, so I have kids. But it's like shifted so much about kind of the foundation there and how I relate to my kids. 'Cause I kind of see this fuller thing in front of me. How would you describe, just kind of from your perspective, what's like the ideal way for a child to be raised in emotional attunement? You know?
Michael Ashenfelter: (37:50)
Yeah. That's, that's I think, like, the million dollar question. Um, and I, I'll usually tell parents... Because, inevitably, that's where my work goes. We will work on their emotional attunement, and engagement, and their connection, and building earned security with one another. And when they'll come towards the end of our work, they'll bring in, how do we pass this on to our kids? Because they realize how they interact with one another impacts how they respond. And so they know they're passing it on to their kids. And so, um, I just, I wanna try to, like, ease everyone into it. Like one, you're gonna mess up. Like, you're not gonna do it. You're not gonna do it perfect, but you're gonna be so much more well-informed. And the great news about attachment is that repair is always available. It's never too late for repair. And in fact, where the bonding actually happens is in the repair. So that's where it's like, don't be afraid to mess up. Um, we have a chance to get it right. We have a chance to recalibrate and come back.
Liz Higgins: (38:52)
I mean, I feel like I almost hear there, you need the mess up.
Michael Ashenfelter: (38:55)
Yeah, absolutely.
Liz Higgins: (38:57)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Michael Ashenfelter: (38:58)
That's one of my favorite, uh, Melanie Klein (who's a relational analyst, developmental) um, her theory on depression is that we can't grow unless we go through depression. And so she had that developmental model where like, infants go through their first depression when the parent doesn't come when they cry. It's just the first realization that I'm not the center of the world. That's the depression. We grow, and we can tolerate, self-soothe. Um, and then it just keeps happening again, again, throughout life. That depression of like, oh crap, I'm not the center. Yeah. Yeah. And the evolution of it and we grow. I think that's so true with attachment - is that we bond, um, not because we did things perfect and never had ruptures. Um, we bond because someone cared enough to repair with us. Uh, and so there's so much power in... Yeah. In repair.
Liz Higgins: (39:54)
I imagine. Yeah. That's like the source of building resilience. You know, in oneself and being able to trust in that and, and you know, on the flip when people have to endure just like ongoing neglect and... And it's just more of this limited, uh, thing that they got to feel those repairs you're talking about. Like even in those intense, you know, ongoing painful experiences, you find that people can come through and build secure attachments.
Michael Ashenfelter: (40:29)
Um, there's a person I follow. Do you know Dr. Becky Good Inside? Yeah. Yeah. Her TED talk.
Liz Higgins: (40:37)
On my social media.
Michael Ashenfelter: (40:38)
Oh yeah. Right. Um, yeah. Her TED talk on repair was so, so good. And she just does a great experiential on that TED talk that I usually refer some clients to.
Liz Higgins: (40:51)
Ah, that's good to know. I mean, we can put a link in our notes to it too. 'Cause that sounds really fascinating. I'm wondering, because I know you spoke to the value of having a couple in front of you, you know, two people versus one. Do you still see clients individually? And what would you say are some of those key differences that might occur in that work? An individual client versus couple?
Michael Ashenfelter: (41:15)
Yeah. Um, I do, I do see individuals still. Um, I would say I am probably a 70/30 split. So 70% is couples, the others are individuals. And honestly, a lot of my individuals are female. Now that I think about it. I only have a couple individual males, but the, the work is different. It's a, it's not slower. Again, like with couples, there's just so much more energy in the room. So if I'm working with a depressed individual, that can be a challenge for me. Um, because it requires me to stay in the depression with them for a bit. Um, and I don't like that. Um, but, uh, so that's actually why I don't see a lot of that. Um, I, I limit myself 'cause I know the room I have. But I think more in the individual work, I'm working on being a temporary attachment figure, um, for them. And so I use myself as a way to navigate relationship and repair with the relationship the client and I make. And so that's where the work is a little different. I still have to try that on in the couple's work, but again, I get to use their, uh, significant other. Who's gonna be much more effective than I ever would be.
Liz Higgins: (42:30)
Right, right. I mean, yeah. I think that makes a lot of sense. I, I hadn't asked you about EFIT. I mean, is that a newer addition to the Emotionally Focused Therapy, the Emotionally Focused Individual Therapy? I got that book, too. Ashley Marie and I have been going through it and stuff. But, do you utilize that process? And how does that kind of compare to the EFT couples therapy?
Michael Ashenfelter: (42:55)
Yeah, so a lot of the same interventions are used within EFIT. Um, I'm not an expert on EFIT, the Emotionally Focused Individual Therapy. I, I gravitate more towards... Brown and Elliot have an attachment model and framework that I follow a little bit more succinctly with individuals. Where they're doing a lot more, like in the EMDR work, they call it resourcing. A lot of that internal resourcing and reparenting with the individual. Um, so it's not a knock on EFIT, I just, uh, I didn't learn it. It is newer to the emotionally focused kind of family. And it really is, um, like if you just want some dirt, um....
Liz Higgins: (43:46)
Give it!
Michael Ashenfelter: (43:47)
Dirt on framework, um, is, uh, it, it's really... Before Sue died, Sue Johnson, it was really kind of her taking back. 'Cause there was, there was some controversy in the development of Emotionally Focused Couples Therapy with another, well her professor. There's rumors that there was some research stolen, and things taken. And so I think her development and really focus, ('cause she stopped seeing couples, um, later, uh, before she passed recently) and was really focused on the individual side. And I think that was her taking it back. I think that was her like, no, this is mine and I'm gonna go this way.
Liz Higgins: (44:28)
Yeah. And good for her. I mean, I think... What I actually remember now, it's like that big giant green book in grad school. I don't know if you had that one, but LMFTs had it to study with. And it was like, I remember her name with another name was kind of the EFT model. Yeah, yeah. Back in those days. But we'll Voldemort that for now.
Michael Ashenfelter: (44:48)
Tt's like the real housewives of therapy. Yeah.
Liz Higgins: (44:52)
Right. It's fascinating. Probably another conversation for another day. But even in the model that I have trained and practiced in like, same. Just some controversies and disputes and really interesting stuff, it's like, Hey, aren't we supposed to be like relational?
Michael Ashenfelter: (45:06)
Yeah.
Liz Higgins: (45:06)
But, but we're human. Hey, so.
Michael Ashenfelter: (45:09)
The real people, real struggles.
Liz Higgins: (45:10)
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Well, Michael, this has been really amazing! And as we kind of come to a close, I'm wondering if there's one thing you wish people understood about men's emotional experiences and relationships. What would you say?
Michael Ashenfelter: (45:25)
I, I think the biggest message I would have, or want people to take away, is that men have emotions. They're... Oftentimes it can look so close and absent, but because they're human, they have emotion. So short of sociopathic, it's just, do we create an environment where it's safe enough to have the emotion? And that's what I strive to do in the therapeutic practice. And so, yeah. And maybe that's even a, like a, my own cry for myself of I have emotion! Like, I just need help showing it because it's been unsafe in other places. So, uh, but yeah. I haven't met a man yet in my practice that, um, was truly just unfeeling.
Liz Higgins: (46:14)
Yeah.
Michael Ashenfelter: (46:15)
It wouldn't exist.
Liz Higgins: (46:16)
Yeah. And as silly as it may sound, like... That is a myth that's out there that's worth busting, you know? So I actually appreciate that you end on that note because I wholeheartedly stand behind that. And, you know, feel really privileged to be able to see the shift that therapy and, you know, just creating that security. And what a relationship can do to like, allow somebody to, to feel and to show that.
Michael Ashenfelter: (46:46)
Absolutely. Yeah.
Liz Higgins: (46:47)
Thank you so much for being with me today! Is there anything else you want listeners to know about you? We're definitely gonna drop your website link so people can find you. But anything about your practice, or you, that you just wanna pitch or share about right now?
Michael Ashenfelter: (47:02)
Yeah. I'm really excited about Cocktail Therapy.
Liz Higgins: (47:05)
Yes, the podcast! Great.
Michael Ashenfelter: (47:06)
And so they can find us on socials at Cocktail Therapy Show. Cocktail Therapy Podcast. Um, and we've recently, we've done, um, some deep dives in analyzing the show The Bear. Um, so we make a good cocktail and we go episode by episode of The Bear and talk about the attachment disturbances within each individual character and how those are working themselves out.
Liz Higgins: (47:32)
That show is like, so chaotic. Like, text me when you get to the Christmas episode because I'll make sure my husband listens with me.
Michael Ashenfelter: (47:40)
I think that one actually just dropped. But that Christmas scene is, is intense. It's funny 'cause we are watching a show, uh, right now called The Pit and it's like a medical ER environment. And I talked to my friend, I was like, (who is a nurse) I was like, is this what it's like? Like, I watch The Bear and I'm like, oh, I get it and I'm fine. But we've had a lot of people tell us, like, I can't watch. It's too intense. But this medical show, I'm like, I don't know how you survive every day.
Liz Higgins: (48:10)
Yeah. Did your friend say that it was like, yeah.
Michael Ashenfelter: (48:12)
She was like, oh yeah, like, it's, it's intense. But she understands it, can hold onto it. But, um, but yeah. The, the podcast, I'm having a lot of fun doing. We're gonna be inviting some other people to interview. Um, yeah. So some theologians, some therapists, some bartenders, um, yeah. And all things.
Liz Higgins: (48:35)
Quite the variety. Honestly, that sounds so fun. I'm, I'm glad to hear you're kind of weaving in in our profession with just really fun conversation. And that pop culture piece too. I seriously get stressed out thinking about The Bear. It's like, so chaotic for me! I'm like, I cannot. I, I wouldn't.
Michael Ashenfelter: (48:53)
Yeah. There's a lot of disorganized attachment in that show.
Liz Higgins: (48:56)
So true. Well, Michael, thanks so much for joining me, and I look forward to listening to your podcast. And thank you for everything you shared today that's helping us grow!
Michael Ashenfelter: (49:05)
Absolutely. It's good to be here.
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